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Koroush Ghazi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 1656
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 1
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To my way of thinking (and it is acknowledged that I am probably eccentric), while any of these groups may be "Christians", it seems odd to me to covet being a worshiper of one who is a son of/mediator to God, as opposed to God himself. Surely the message in the Bible is almost entirely about submitting to the will of God, not the will of Christ? Even though they're supposed to be one and the same, one supersedes the other.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132394
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 2
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I’ve long suspected the Trinity was invented to get around Jesus clearly violating the First Commandment by declaring himself the “one path” to salvation. See, he’s not setting himself “before” God if he IS God.
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3017
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 3
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My theory is the Trinity (and saint cults) emerged as a compromise with paganism. Probably instinctively, not deliberately. The superstitious get to have their monotheism and eat their pantheon, too.
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Dale Lerette Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 March 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 750
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Posted: 28 August 2019 at 6:55am | IP Logged | 4
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Everyone is allowed to believe what they believe. But the idea that Jesus did not actually exist isn't actually supported by most historians. Even many atheist historians acknowledge his influence. This doesn't mean they accept his claim to deity. They don't believe in his resurrection. But based on external sources most agree it seems implausible that Jesus did not actually exist. This doesn't even include the writings of the early church, which are often not even considered.
We know Jesus was here. Peace be upon you.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132394
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Posted: 28 August 2019 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 5
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But based on external sources most agree it seems implausible that Jesus did not actually exist. •• "External sources" are virtually nonexistent. That's part of the problem. The Bible is close to the only nearly contemporary reference for the life of Jesus, and what remains, such as the writings of Josephus, scholars consider highly suspect.* The complete absence of any Roman records is particularly vexing for historians. The life of Pontius Pilot, for instance, is fairly well documented (up to the moment he simply vanishes!), and no reference to Jesus can be found. Two letters, from nearly a century later, often referenced by Christians as proof of the historical reality of Jesus (one was by Pliny), actually reference Christianity, as a new cult based on the worship of Jesus. This would be like taking a Roman letter that mentions Jupiter (the god) and using it as proof he was real. ____________________________ * A great historical irony, there. The Jews condemned and ignored Josephus' histories, considering him a traitor who had sold out to the Romans. It was the Christians who preserved the work, largely because of two rare extra-Biblical references to Jesus. References which are now largely dismissed as forgeries!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132394
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Posted: 28 August 2019 at 7:23am | IP Logged | 6
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Peace be upon you.•• Peace and love. That's what Jesus was all about, right? That's why this: "Jesus doesn’t only reference hell, he describes it in great detail. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19–31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna” (Matt. 10:28), which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots abounded. Jesus talks about hell more than he talks about heaven, and describes it more vividly. There’s no denying that Jesus knew, believed, and warned against the absolute reality of hell." And that's from The Gospel Coalition, a Christian site. Ah, feel the love!
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12464
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Posted: 28 August 2019 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 7
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The case for doubt, here.
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Robbie Moubert Byrne Robotics Member
Evertonian
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1485
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Posted: 28 August 2019 at 7:39am | IP Logged | 8
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I like Matt Dillahunty's take on the so-called loving god:
"I am the supreme loving ruler of the universe and I make all the rules...and I'd like to forgive you but I can't, so I'm gonna come down and take human form and have myself killed temporarily - give up part of a weekend and I get to continue being god - to act as a loophole for rules that I created." That's not love...
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132394
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Posted: 28 August 2019 at 7:46am | IP Logged | 9
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Julia Sweeney talks about having been taught that Jesus suffered and died for our sins. She compares it to her brother, who struggled with cancer for ten years before finally succumbing to the disease. As she put it, Jesus had a bad weekend for our sins.
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Koroush Ghazi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 1656
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Posted: 28 August 2019 at 7:53am | IP Logged | 10
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The simplest case for doubt of Jesus' existence is quite simply, as both JB and Michael's source point out, this: there are no contemporary accounts of such an extraordinary person, who had a supposedly profound impact on everyone around him. Consider that. How is that possible? Many, much lesser, events and persons were chronicled in their day by their contemporaries, sometimes by their enemies, but not Jesus? Impossible.
As for Biblical accounts of Jesus, as I've quoted in the past, even the Bible makes Jesus seem like a psycho at times. My favorite remains Matthew 21:18-21:
QUOTE:
Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” |
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What the... ?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132394
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Posted: 28 August 2019 at 8:01am | IP Logged | 11
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I'm reminded of BRUCE ALMIGHTY, in which the titular character, given God's powers, grants ALL prayers. What a mess the world would be in if prayer actually worked!!
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Eric Ladd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4506
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Posted: 28 August 2019 at 8:10am | IP Logged | 12
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Las Vegas would be overrun with gamblers and destroyed in a weekend if prayer actually worked. My guess is the odds are the same for anyone praying while they gamble or abstaining while they gamble. But that is just a guess. =/
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