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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15820
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Posted: 26 August 2019 at 8:04am | IP Logged | 1
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I do find the shroud fascinating (simply as a forgery), but the wrapping of the shroud would have been odd. Were bodies every wrapped in such a way? One half straight on top and then folded length-wise to lie underneath. And of course, no folds at all in the image.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132344
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Posted: 26 August 2019 at 8:31am | IP Logged | 2
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One "artistic" element of the Shroud that exposes it as a fake is the way the top of "Jesus'" head on both sides touch, like he's some kind of folding cardboard dressup-doll.Incidentally, when I visited the Vatican gift shop circa 1994-ish, I picked up a plastic image of the shroud that switches to a portrait of Jesus when turned. Miraculous!
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Koroush Ghazi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 1653
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Posted: 26 August 2019 at 8:22pm | IP Logged | 3
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John Byrne wrote:
a plastic image of the shroud that switches to a portrait of Jesus when turned. Miraculous! |
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That's Christ-errific!
As you say JB, the shroud cannot possibly work if you accept the Bible. Just one example from (Isaiah 52:14):
QUOTE:
...his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness |
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Jesus was supposedly beaten so badly, he was disfigured beyond recognition! So not only does the Shroud not represent that, Christ was a middle eastern Jew, not the european man the shroud depicts. It can't possibly be real. Don't any of the "faithful" actually read their own Bibles??
To add:
John Byrne wrote:
...JC would have had to have been a gorilla to cross his arms like that and have his hands cover his naughty bits. |
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Apparently the counter-theory on this is that the body was contorted forward due to rigor mortis. This is when they constructed a 3D Image of Jesus that was supposedly based on the shroud.
Edited by Koroush Ghazi on 26 August 2019 at 8:30pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132344
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 3:21am | IP Logged | 4
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I’ve seen that sculpt, and, again from an artistic standpoint, it really doesn’t match the image on the Shroud, which presents two sides of a figure lying FLAT. And there’s that floating hair again, even more obvious in 3D.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132344
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 5:00am | IP Logged | 5
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There's an element of most traditional portrayals of Jesus that overlooks a key moment in the Biblical story: the betrayal by Judas*. If Jesus was tall, fair skinned, pale haired, blue eyed, etc, and therefore very much at odds with the physical appearance of men in that area, at that time, why did the Romans need someone to single him out in the group? ___________________ * And why is this a "betrayal"? Wasn't it a necessary part of The Plan?
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12448
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 5:43am | IP Logged | 6
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Key starting point: is one looking for the historical Jesus (a Jewish man in that specific place and time), or, is one looking for the historical Christ (the Lord God Himself come to earth in the flesh)?
Key muddle: the Gospels show virtually no knowledge of the historical Jesus as he might actually have been known to the Jews around him and instead constantly use the so-called Old Testament as source material for his life (reverse that, strip away all the "facts" connected to multifarious quotes from Jewish scripture intentionally included to prove old texts were later "fulfilled" in the life of Jesus, and what's really left as even possible historical evidence of the man?); moreover, the Gospels are an uncertain and inconsistent compiling of unreachable Greek (non-Aramaic, i.e., non-Palestinian-Jewish) earlier sources (not just to us, but to the earliest Christian communities as well, so much that nothing but "traditions" that, naturally, ratify Christian beliefs remain) in order to affirm to believers and to preach to non-believers a religion based on the Christ, believers and non-believers who were not Jews. What kind of microscopic needle in a planet-sized haystack would the historical Jesus be within all that? In other words, even if one sincerely is looking only for that particular Jew Jesus who lived in that specific place and time... good luck!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132344
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 5:51am | IP Logged | 7
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There's one thing in the story of Jesus that gives me reason to think that maybe, maybe there was a real man at the center of all the fairy tales. That's his moment of doubt in the garden of Gethsemane. If the whole thing is made up, that's some pretty sophisticated writing, right there.Doesn't provide enough to buy the whole cloth, of course. The story has been stepped on many times. No way to even known if that moment in the garden wasn't added on centuries later.
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Carlos Velasco Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 August 2019 Location: Spain Posts: 280
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 6:45am | IP Logged | 8
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I wish all conservatives had JB's mentality, respecting facts and science and giving each problem the attention it actually needs. (JB said he was a moderate republican some years ago).
Edited by Carlos Velasco on 27 August 2019 at 6:46am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132344
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 7:02am | IP Logged | 9
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I have not been a registered Republican in a long time. When I moved to this house, 14 years ago, I registered as an Independent. Voted for Obama twice. Describing myself I borrow the name, if not the actual politics of a Canadian party from my youth: progressive conservative. Basically, let us go forward—carefully!
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12448
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
That's his moment of doubt in the garden of Gethsemane. If the whole thing is made up, that's some pretty sophisticated writing, right there. |
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Modern scholarship -- since the 19th century -- considers that "doubt" a much later interpolation. Introducing an element of human doubt was key in the battle of the Church Fathers against docetists (those Christians who considered the humanity, and therefore the suffering of Jesus, an illusion).
Also, it was such a traditional trope for Jewish prophets to ask God not to force them into their mission that by the time the Gospels were mushed together, this was quite the cliche.
Finally, just like Jesus, David, fleeing from Absalom, went with his followers sadly to pray on the Mount of Olives: 2 Samuel 15:30 -- "And David went up by the ascent of mount Olivet, and wept as he went up, and had his head covered, and he went barefoot. All the people with him covered their heads too and were weeping as they went up."
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12448
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 7:31am | IP Logged | 11
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Addendumb: simply saying "the Church Fathers" versus "the docetists" implies a greater validity in the form of Christianity that the so-called "Church Fathers" represented. The docetists had their own Fathers. But they lost the battle for what became Christianity.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132344
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Posted: 27 August 2019 at 7:41am | IP Logged | 12
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I’m reminded of the old joke: Who won World War 2? Who came second?There have been so many cults identifying themselves as TRUE Christians. It become hard to pick a winner. The Catholic Church, maybe, but like Claremont’s X-Men, not a clear win.
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