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Lars Johansson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 June 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6113
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 1
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Chad wrote: I'm kind of in the boat that I enjoy talking about the creative process behind comics, which includes talking about characters and what does or doesn't "make them work".
I have written comics once in my life. Technically, the answer to your question is not important, but that you ask it means that it's a failiure. If many fans ask it at least. Can you spot the difference between the following questions:
"What makes this character work so well/badly?"
"What will happen to Superman in the next issue when he's caught by Lex Luthor?"
Th first one means that you are on the outside, the next one means that you are in the story.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 4:23pm | IP Logged | 2
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Websites and message boards probably have helped drive up sales of cross-overs and Sensational Death stories at the expense of all other comics. Not a good thing.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 05 July 2007 at 4:24pm
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Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10942
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | 3
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I think it all depends on your experiences.
I love the comic shops I now haunt and the people running them are
great, but it took me a while to find these places. For a long time I went in
and out of comic stores as quickly as possible. The conversations were
overwhelmingly negative and cloying. That's my big problem with behind
the scenes talk by people who are not behind the scenes - it's trash talk
to puff up the person gossiping. I really enjoy crtical analysis of comics
by people who know what they are talking about or have an intersting
perspective, but all to often it seemed like I was trrapped in jack-off land
at these comic shops.
I feel the internet has been wonderful for bringing together comic readers
and this site is ideal for me as a JB fan. But it goes beyond that when I
get together with friends from here as we cover every topic under the
sun. I value the friends I've made here and most that I've met casually
have been great.
I do see that the internet has given a disproportionate voice to those who
do not represent the majority. That's an unfortunate result that will
always be with us, but as time marches on and the internet evolves, we
will find pockets that are interesting and fulfilling.
This website is one of those pockets. It's great for discussion of JB's
work, but it also expands to topics outside of comics. The general comic
industry threads leave me cold as I don't follow the current industry
closely. I'm glad this is not a website devoted to current comics in
general as those sites don't hold my interest beyond ten minutes. It is
interesting to me to hear a true inside opinion like JB as his historical and
artistic perspective is unique.
So I think the internet is ultimately a positve force for bringing us
together and hopefully over time, it will increasingly develop as a forum
for productive talk about how to get comics back on track and into the
hands of kids so it can go on and on beyond us old fogies.
One example that could have possibly been a result of the internet is the
recent Captain America storyline. The loss of the element of surprise in
comics has long been a topic 'round these parts. Say what you will about
that storyline, you have to give them credit for surprising us. Maybe the
folks at Marvel caught wind through here or elsewhere, and if they did
then there is one positive example. And even if that did not result from
the internet, at least the discussion is out there and can gain momentum
through the internet.
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Stan Lomisceau
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 October 2006
Posts: 530
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | 4
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you have to admit it is not always such a great idea for all of tnhe
fans to have talked to one another. the comics books are meant for you
to hav eread alone and maybe in your room or under a tree and then in
so many years when you have become older you have moved on. now it is
so many people who have stayed in their basement and make so many
opinions on the web sites. you can understand why so many people like
mr. byrne are mad at this is you thinka bout it. mr. byrne if you have
wanted someone to talk of your feelings to with this than you can
alwatys tell me. i have agreed that it is not so great for so many fans
to think they have come into a clubhouse. if you want some clubhouse
than maybe become a golf player or in a club!
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Stan Lomisceau
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 October 2006
Posts: 530
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | 5
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mr zhang says a very true thing. if you have the web sites where all of
the troll fans have come and they talk about the civil war and the
other comics like that all of the fan boys can buy these comics. not a
great idea for me!
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Jeff Albertson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 March 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 451
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 6
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Joe,
It would be really tough to show a direct correlation, especially with regards to the "at the expense of all other comics" part.
I can definitely attest to the fact that the internet has led me to buy books that I wouldn't have known about or tried otherwise, such as Castle Waiting by Linda Medley, the Dan Slott She-Hulk series, and eventually, if all goes well, the book by Wayne Osborne and JB.
Like everything, the internet has both its pluses and minuses.
Lars,
What happens for me is that I ask both those questions, at different times. I don't think the mere fact that I think about what amazing creations Superman and Spider-Man are means that the authors have failed. It means that their work has engaged my interest on more than one level. That's really a good thing, isn't it?
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | 7
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"It would be really tough to show a direct correlation, especially with
regards to the "at the expense of all other comics" part. "
I make that guess based on the sales figures tracked by several guys on the Web (that thing again.) In months when the DC or Marvel market share get bumped up by the crossovers, the Indy share shrinks.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | 8
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"The comparison is insulting."
"Firefighting" is an everyday figure of speech. Duh.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 05 July 2007 at 4:44pm
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Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | 9
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"What makes this character work so well/badly?"
"What will happen to Superman in the next issue when he's caught by Lex Luthor?"
Th first one means that you are on the outside, the next one means that you are in the story.
How do you distinguish between a creator who loves comics and a fan who loves comics and wants to create them? I mean, I'm asking everyone, JB included.
I think the fan who creates creates what he always wanted to see. The creator who loves comics wants to create comics he wouldn't be ashamed for Jack Kirby to see.
I think the same thing about novel-writing; I care intensely about entertaining anyone who reads suspense fiction, but I only want to impress the writers who influenced me, like Harlan Ellison and Stephen King. Both of whom spear-headed my love of comics, movies, and pulp fiction with their own devoted cheerleading of the mediums, characters, and the integrity to be found in them.
When I say I discuss what makes a character work, I'm discussing what makes a character work because I want Jack Kirby to take his cigar out long enough to say, "Not bad, kid! Keep tryin!"
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Trevor Krysak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4163
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | 10
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"How do you distinguish between a creator who loves comics and a fan who loves comics and wants to create them? I mean, I'm asking everyone, JB included."
One is the before and the other is after. As Len Wein said "The first story you'd do as a fan should be the last story you'd do as a pro." If you are doing a story as a professional writer or artist you are setting aside the biases you have as a fan. In theory.
For example. Hawkeye is my favorite character. But if I were to write an Avengers story that had him in it I would be making a huge mistake as a professional writer if I turned it into the Hawkeye show basically. The character is the character. If I write toward the strengths and weaknesses of that character - great! If I slip outside that without some justification in the story I'm basically indulging the fan aspect.
A fan is reading it and the creator is making it. I don't know that you can really have it both ways. It's one or the other.
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Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | 11
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Does the internet changes opinions that much? Most people who've quit comics talk to me and they go, "Oh! The only comics I really liked were DKR and Watchmen. All the other comics were just the same thing." I just nod and agree with them instead of letting them know all comics are like that now. I don't tell them that they aren't unique at all because I'm a bitch.
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Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 05 July 2007 at 6:27pm | IP Logged | 12
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A fan is reading it and the creator is making it. I don't know that you can really have it both ways. It's one or the other.
Isn't this like saying if you write espionage novels you can't read Matt Helm or Robert Ludlum?
Harlan Ellison is one of the biggest fans of comics in the world. He has written great comics. How does one trump the other?
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