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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 30 September 2020 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

If I wanted to turn a good character 'evil' I would probably have set up real bad things happening to them in their life... all Jean Grey supposedly had was this bad boy Mastermind guy whispering naughty things and giving her some weird trips... I never got the inherent 'darkness' Jean was supposed to have had in her all along. Now I don't have to even try to see any of that! Again... Yay! :^)

Someday I need to check out Night Nurse. Now she could be my favorite heroine! Might be a great time for a come-back too...
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Richard Palmgren
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Posted: 30 September 2020 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Xmas---------Xmas---------Xmas---"today" seemed just about right.

-----------------

so,

issue 98----119-----143----"today" = spring-ish of the following year?

and I'm sure we'd all love to hear stories or anecdotes about series / characters that were crazy suggestions back in the day (Miss Marvel, Sue Storm, girl detective)
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David Haight
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Posted: 30 September 2020 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Yeah, and I suppose it wouldn't surprise anyone to hear that a recent Invisible Woman mini-series did something similar - instead of having her branch out in "modern day" as a private detective, they introduced a retcon that she was a part-time S.H.I.E.L.D. agent from early on in her career to present day.  
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David Haight
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Posted: 30 September 2020 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Thanks!  I've been really enjoying the "Elsewhen" series, and especially this storyline depicting a more joyful (so far) reunion between Scott and the real Jean.  
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Mark McKay
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Posted: 30 September 2020 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

JB, now that Jean is back and you have the story to this point: what was appealing to you about introducing the clone idea into the story, rather than the "original" plan (lo those many years ago) of a lobotomized Jean and Phoenix as recurring villain?

(I love this story, just wondering).
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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 September 2020 at 3:13pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

All I can say is “stay tuned!”
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Chris Durnell
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Posted: 30 September 2020 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

 Rebecca Jansen wrote:
If I wanted to turn a good character 'evil' I would probably have set up real bad things happening to them in their life... all Jean Grey supposedly had was this bad boy Mastermind guy whispering naughty things and giving her some weird trips... I never got the inherent 'darkness' Jean was supposed to have had in her all along. Now I don't have to even try to see any of that! Again... Yay! :^)

I don't know what the original intent of the creators were, but I assumed it was less about any inherent darkness about Jean, but about the general capacity of good and evil in people, and lots of Freudian pseudo-psychology.  

The Phoenix Force was like a "high".  Jean's compassion and self-discipline, among other virtues, kept that in check.  But Mastermind's psychic manipulations greatly weakened those virtues, and Jean was overwhelmed by the "high" of the Phoenix Force which cause her to keep seeking out the sensation of using her vast powers.

I would liken it to a drug addict chasing that high and doing whatever she needed to get it.  Combined with the occasional assertion of self-control that proved only temporary.  Jean could sober up, but there was always the potential for relapse.  Without the Phoenix Force present, Jean probably would have recovered from Mastermind just well.

That may not be how it was intended, but it was how I interpreted what happened to Jean during the Dark Phoenix Saga.

I do know that one of Claremont's many tropes was that his characters had dark sides waiting to be unleashed.  He used that repeatedly in both X-Men and New Mutants in various guises in various degrees notably with Storm, the Shadow King's intrigues, Illyana Rasputin, and Sunspot.  I'm sure I missed several.  His version of Jean/Phoenix was probably just the first time he used this.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 30 September 2020 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

The idea seemed to be that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I don't know if I ever really bought that premise, never mind it working on a basically decent human person without terrible things happening to break them up earlier. Claremont did add a story later through Bizarre Adventures #27 of young Jean Grey telepathically 'being with' a friend who was hit by a vehicle while she dies however, and he may've added other such things I never saw. I guess I'd have to get a lot of power and go 'evil' from it to believe it. A powerful entity of evil existing seems more believable to me for some reason over the supposed corruption of an above-average heroically inclined person. I thought The Exorcist was scary not because Linda Blair went from goody-goody to vile, it was that someone could be possessed. Jean Grey possessed worked for me, but Jean on her own, who had done heroic things over 66+ comic stories, tripping on a power boost... it was a bit like having Peter Parker have his hair fall out from radiation poisoning and eventually die. We expect proven heroes to redeem themselves, that if they do go wrong for there to be a chance of redemption... that they learn to wield the power responsibly. Jean was someone who had risked her life many times, was not cowardly, not desirous of living forever under any circumstances. Being named Phoenix I thought circa age 13 she could come back someday in some form, despite earning a death penalty. The Jamaica Bay scenario fit that just fine, like an end-run around the various blockers!

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 30 September 2020 at 4:26pm
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Jonathan A. Dowdell
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Posted: 30 September 2020 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

David, thanks for the all the information on Scott and Jean and the vintage shot from the silver age. My comment was based solely in the similarity between Jean and Scott's outfits from those panels in the published edition and Mr. Byrne's unused splash page from the original version of 138. 

There may be nothing more than similarity in these images? 

edited for syntax


Edited by Jonathan A. Dowdell on 30 September 2020 at 4:50pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 September 2020 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Nullum simile est idem.
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 01 October 2020 at 7:57am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Uh oh.

Those guys look determined.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 01 October 2020 at 8:01am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

JB, one of the things I enjoyed most about your time on X-Men was how the book never settled into a groove. Readers could never tell where the story was going to go next--time travel, space adventure, trips to "places not known to man," fighting giant robots or a cabal of evil mutants...

With ELSEWHEN, I have that same feeling. I'm looking forward to wherever you take the mutants next.
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