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Topic: Et tu, Moira!? Or...what makes a mutant - SPOILERS Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Chris Rayman
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Posted: 15 August 2019 at 6:42am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Sorry for the delay, Juan. I also apologize for the lengthy rant. (This is by far the longest post I've ever made here but it's something I've never really talked about to anyone so I guess it was a long time coming.)

One of my problems with Hickman comes back to JB's comment about incomprehensible extremes. Not EVERY story needs to have the stakes set at ALL of time and space. Granted, this has since permeated all superhero books (aside from Marvel's diversity marketed boks like Squirell Girl, the new Wasp, etc.) but Hickman's FF run put me off immediately for being so big I COULDN'T care (and that was following Mark Millar!).

Then he came over to Avengers. His first issue seemed generic enough because despite a "standard supervillain threat" (my favorite kind of superhero stories) I was bored, probably because HE was bored, and for the same reason as Bendis: Neither wanted to write the Avengers. Virtually every new Avengers writer brings with them a new team member (more than likely to leave their mark) and I probably would do the same (but that's a topic for another day ;) . In the case of Bendis and HIckman they brought entire teams and virtual armies of characters with no reasonable ties into the group, changing the very core concept of the book's MO.

Earth Mightiest Heroes featuring Cannonball, Sunspot, Eden Fesi, Hyperion, Smasher (from the Imperial Guard), etc... But that's not the worst part.

A paralell universe (or whatever!) is on a collision course with "ours" (threatening EVERYTHING) so Reed, Black Panther, Beast, decide to just WIPE THEM OUT because better them then us. Hickman decides to play Cap surprising IN character tho until Dr Strange mindwipes him to keep him out of their way. Not only is this terrible writing (ignoring decades of established characterization) but it's RIGHT out of DC's then fairly recent Identity Crisis, making it unoriginal as well. And I don't want to hear anything about "no other way out". This. Is. Fiction. That's the whole point of a third act macguffin. 

Towards the ending the heroes do have a change of heart but by then it's too late. The character assassination was done. Then despite previous writers showing time and again that more isn't always the answer with the Avengers, Cap and Iron Man (buddies agin) make everyone and their brother an Avenger and appoint Suspot as one of the leaders.

I can't remember whether I even finished the next story. Like I said, the damage was done and every Marvel superhero comic I've read since has a touch of this crazy stakes, gloomy heroes, stuff. We're told to vote with our wallets so I did. My vote had little to no impact but it was all I could do so I stopped. #notmyavengers

But all of this is of course just my take, your mileage may vary.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 August 2019 at 6:54am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

When I was working on FOURTH WORLD I found almost all my stories had to go all the way to 11. Pretty exhausting! Of course, those were GODS I was working with, but even there I could occasionally scale back to "smaller," more human tales.

It goes back to the "if everyone is super, mo one is" comment. If ALL the stories are the First Coming of Galactus, it does become difficult, after a while, to care.

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Juan Gomez
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Posted: 15 August 2019 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

No problem, Chris. I'm no stranger to reading and making long posts throughout my years of posting online, though I do try to not go too far these days. Still, I think it's only fair to reply in kind. All the same, we can all agree to disagree.

On a basic level, I can understand. Speaking purely for myself, my personal favorite modern Avengers run was the Perez-Busiek era, which was a very traditional take on the team yet still very well-executed across the board. That was arguably one of the best 90s Marvel books. The first arc is massive in terms of cast length, but the team was quickly scaled down to a more familiar size after that point. In any case, it felt like a breath of fresh air after the misfire that had been the Heroes Reborn titles from Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld and company.

I am someone who is totally capable of appreciating small-scale tales or even anthology pieces. At the same time, I also tend to like stories with greater ambition and a big scope. That doesn't mean every single superhero narrative needs to be like that, perish the thought, but I strongly believe it's a valid storytelling option. If I don't feel like reading such a story at a certain point due to excess or exhaustion, then I'll just stop and come back later.

Perhaps I'll want to read something different and closer to a classical take after the fact, thus returning to the core concept if you want to describe it as such. It may be that many modern comics do tend to fall into the temptation of trying to do too much in too little time, but that's precisely why I don't follow a lot of current comics in the first place. I pick a few and ignore the rest.

I happen to disagree with your assessment of Hickman's FF run, because in my experience he still managed to give the team enough moments of individuality and personal interactions as a family, regardless of the threats. Like I've said before, I was fairly engaged by the sci-fi content too.

Regarding Avengers, I think there were proper narrative justifications for why the team needed to expand in the face of threats on an essentially galactic and/or universal scale. At the same time, I felt the core members were still classic Avengers such as Captain America, Iron Man and Thor. Guest stars or effectively temporary members did increase, comparatively, but they aren't entirely unusual for this line of comics either.

It's important to address a few more points about the specifics of the story. Captain America was vehemently opposed to the idea of destroying another world to save their own, which was fully in character since he should be the most heroic of them all, but the others felt they were forced to seriously consider it (even if none of them, save Namor, were ultimately willing to pull the trigger). That being the case, they couldn't keep Cap around and needed to erase his memory (which does come back to bite Tony and company later, since Steve does find out and isn't happy). In my opinion, Doctor Strange wasn't out of character there. He has dealt with the devil, both literally and figuratively speaking, numerous times in the past. The act of erasing someone's memory isn't forbidden territory for him either.

Skipping right to the end of Hickman's run, all these events fed directly into the new Secret Wars. It was meant to be an apocalyptic "death and rebirth" scenario, where the heroes were taken to their breaking point and made a lot of wrong decisions. Yet, in the end, it was heroism that still triumphed and the vast majority of those previously escalating actions were negated. In the current Marvel Universe, they never happened. In other words, a clean slate was (very responsibly) left for the next writer instead of a messy room.

There's a separate discussion to be had about originality. At this point in the history of mankind, I think such a pure ideal doesn't exist. It's almost impossible to avoid falling into common patterns, because everyone is influenced by something else. It's craft and skill that differs. Like the famous saying goes: “good artists copy, great artists steal”.


Edited by Juan Gomez on 15 August 2019 at 12:33pm
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 15 August 2019 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply


 QUOTE:
Speaking purely for myself, my personal favorite modern Avengers run was the Perez-Busiek era, which was a very traditional take on the team yet still very well-executed across the board. That was arguably one of the best 90s Marvel books. The first arc is massive in terms of cast length, but the team was quickly scaled down to a more familiar size after that point. In any case, it felt like a breath of fresh air after the misfire that had been the Heroes Reborn titles from Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld and company.


You said it, Juan! Perez and Busiek had a nice run (including the guest artist issues by Alan Davis) before things started going off track again.
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Daniel Burke
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Posted: 16 August 2019 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

If I remember correctly I think I was also reading Claire North’s, The First Fifteen Lives of Harry August [which is just fantastic],
Hickman in 2016


Claire north is calling out potential plagiarism....
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Daniel Burke
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Posted: 16 August 2019 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Not gonna lie, I am feeling a bit weirded out by this. The writer's on record saying he's read Harry August and this is... beyond similar. So hum. Just dunno what to make of this one.

-Claire North


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Daniel Burke
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Posted: 16 August 2019 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

So sorta this. I mean, maybe it’s just a loving and honourable coincidence of tangled ideas? But it feels like a rip off right now, and I’d be curious to know where the line between “honouring” and “are you kidding” lies. https://t.co/liyvtkq5ir

— Claire North (@ClaireNorth42) August 8, 2019

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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 August 2019 at 10:38am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

A dangerous door to open when it comes to comics!
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David Miller
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Posted: 16 August 2019 at 11:18am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

She's commented since. From August 11:

 Claire North wrote:
For fear of kicking at a hornet's nest again, some few words (hopefully last?) on House of X... Firstly thank you everyone who has been chiming in with words supportive and thoughtful - it's all been hugely appreciated. /1

People have rightly pointed out that ideas are rarely original. I have been fed on my culture; so has X-Men. Sometimes this is a glorious sharing of stories, sometimes it can feel like standing on each other's toes. In this case... depends where you're standing, I suspect. /2

However! It's been kindly pointed out that the scribbler on House of X has been asked the same questions I'm asking, and while these things may never be clear, his reply has been generous and courteous. /3

Lawyers do law; writers should do good humaning. So as a scribbler it'd be rude not to acknowledge that, be appreciative of that and wave back. And so.... /5

If you are loving the current run of House of X, please check out the First Fifteen Lives of Harry August.And if you loved Harry August, you're probably gonna dig House of X!And if you've never read either, give 'em both a go. Every reader finds something new to you alone. /6
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 August 2019 at 11:44am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

It’s lucky she’s not Harlan Ellison.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 August 2019 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Chris Claremont was semi-notorious for the way he “recycled” stories from “outside sources”. He once referred to a plot line on I, CLAUDIUS as “too good to waste”.

In 1980, while attending the Chicago Con, a large group of us were taken to see the live action sci-fi play WARP. I remember nothing about it, except turning to Joe Staton, sitting behind me, and saying “Now I know what I’ll be keeping out of X-MEN for the next six months!”

As if on cue, Chris, on the other side of the theater, leaped up and called across to me “Have I got a plot for you!”

It’s common. Been there myself, tho not on Chris’ scale. Blind Destiny’s ability to scan the Future was inspired by my reading of DUNE MESSIAH. And everybody tried to swipe ALIEN!

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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 16 August 2019 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Did the ALIEN homage in #143 come from you or Chris?
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