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Topic: My Byrne, a question about heroes killing bad guys Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Drew Spence
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 4:12am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Sir, firstly let me ask.. I know you did some risque stuff (you know, the erotic art phase) so I know you have a huge span of stuff you will consider worthy of your pen, BUT....

Did you feel constrained by working in the regular (friendly ratings) comics field for what a comic character was allowed to do- in regards to killing bad guys and meeting lethal levels of justice.....?
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As a staple, I understand the NEED for them to return and be a threat, again and again, but what about the henchmen? What are your feelings on that?

This question came from this article where Snyder is defending (angrily) his decisions in Batman V Superman. 


And I remember being in the theater and thinking hard about that car chase scene and I thought "Bats wouldn't do that..." but maybe he would or better yet, maybe he should.

I have no answers because we live in a  darker interpretation of many of these characters..My (first) Batman was 60's camp. And then I discovered the comics......

Are we wrong to be bothered or is it time we grew up?
Please My Byrne, make sense of this......

And of course anyone else that has some thoughts....

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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 6:12am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Wally Wood used to say that “there are good guys and there are bad guys, and the job of the good guys is to kill the bad guys.”

Tho I would suggest not as a first choice.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 3 post reply


 QUOTE:
My (first) Batman was 60's camp. And then I discovered the comics......

Timing is key, I suppose. The TV show captured the Batman of the early/mid-60s pretty well. I too first discovered Batman through "Batman." But when I first really read the comicbook, it was the O'Neil/Adams version. Different from the show, no doubt. And, I was young enough yet that this made no real impact upon me. I hadn't seen really any camp in the TV show. The threats to the Dynamic Duo were darned real to me!


 QUOTE:
Are we wrong to be bothered or is it time we grew up?

As I grew up, of course I discovered the burlesque aspects of "Batman," and I've never been able to love the show since then. Yet, camp-aside, the heroic nobility of character displayed by Batman in the TV show remained definitive to me, and such would be totally incongruous with his choosing to kill even just low-level bad guys.

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Drew Spence
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 6:40am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I like that answer, but I must press you. I apologize in advance.
Are you OKAY with that change in tone?

And I admit, I am happy to have your attention, for even a moment - and I do declare it is your responsibility to set the tone for the next wave/generation of artists. Is it okay for Superman to kill the Joker in INJUSTICE (the video game story line) as a possible reality - or does it 'break the world'?

As a kid, I HATED that all the bad guys got away - just like how I hated on Gilligan's island something always failed and kept them stranded or Josie and the Pussycats - I think Alexandria kept betraying them and they kept her alive or Doctor Smith in Lost in Space....

Do you, for the sake of a series keep the bad guys around and alive, or is some part of you suspending belief that (almost) no one dies? Do you know why Superman never killed Lex or Batman doesn't kill the joker?

In the recent movie Joker says something to the effect that Batman NEEDS the Joker. Is that true? You should know.
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Andrew Cate
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 7:00am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Interesting topic. I'm almost embarrassed to admit this but I recently picked up the trades to the Injustice Gods Among Us series. Pretty lengthy all together, maybe 50-60 issues. It's like watching a really bad reality show that you don't want to admit you like. Not giving much away as it sets the pace in the first issue...something very tragic happens to Superman and he decides to go around killing all the bad guys (and some good) to try and bring about peace. Who would stand with him...who wouldn't?
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

First, I don't remember all bad guys always getting away... Luthor spent plenty of time in jail and the Joker was locked away in Arkham plenty of times. Some say Batman NEEDS the Joker... I think Batman doesn't kill the Joker because he's proving he's better than him by NOT taking the easy route of killing. Batman also honors his parents by not becoming like the murderer that took their lives.

-C!
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 7 post reply


 QUOTE:
Are you OKAY with that change in tone?

I'm probably not the best person to ask about this, Drew, because I stopped reading comicbooks around the time JB first started on "The Fantastic Four." Some of what I've discovered about what happened to the characters I had known as a reader has come to me as quite a shock as I've discovered details over the years, almost wholly through reading threads on the JBF. I like what I like, and I like that I like it -- but I wouldn't post comments here purely as a classic old crank, especially about comicbooks that I've never actually read. Others like what they like too!

Anyway, in my time as an active reader -- you can round it off to 1970-1980 -- I think the tone was fairly consistent. Are you referring to a "darker" tone post-1980...? About that, well -- I've heard things...!



Edited by Michael Penn on 26 March 2019 at 7:45am
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 7:50am | IP Logged | 8 post reply


 QUOTE:
I hated on Gilligan's island something always failed and kept them stranded

It may be that "Gilligan's Island" was always a severely limited premise and your frustration simply focused on flaw in conception.

But, of course, if they were ever rescued or escaped the island, then... what's the show? 

In re comicbooks, that line of contravening the essential should not be crossed. Lots of debate over what is essential, but I think that despite many different types of changes between the late 30s to probably (as far as I've learned subsequently) the mid-80s or so, i.e., about a half-century, the essentials of most superheroes were readily identifiable no matter the era.
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Joe S. Walker
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

In the first half-dozen Batman stories he kills at least four people, most of them henchmen. But they have all tried to kill him first.
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Sergio Saavedra
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 9:08am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I think the best effect (or the only good effect) of censorship on comics is the non-killing rule for superheroes. When properly addressed, it gives them a halo of dignity, of nobility, a clear superiority over their foes. I hate when writers present it as a weakness.

For Batman v Superman, when I watched the film I interpreted that one of the plots was that Batman was embittered and way down, which makes him be too violent, and Superman saves him. After reading Zack Snyder, it seems that his intention was other: I should grow up and accept that adults kill people.
Please, let nobody have him direct a biopic about Gandhi!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Young Bruce Wayne swore on his parents graves that he would spend the rest of his life warring on crime. And then he went out and did exactly that.

Batman should be the most psychologically stable and healthy guy anyone is ever likely to meet

(An important point in DKR--which Frank confirmed for me, but which almost everyone seemed to miss--was that Bruce had retired, and thus betrayed his oath. THAT was why he was off the deep end.)

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 26 March 2019 at 9:45am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

The bad guys in Batman spend most of their time incarcerated. Every now and then they break out and have a temporary spree of badness. Until they are once again brought to justice by Batman and the Gotham police.

Bringing to justice does not mean Batman executing them.
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