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Michael Murphy
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Posted: 20 January 2019 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I remember a few years back when Jonathan Hickman said in an interview that he understood that his comic stories were dense but cited Wikipedia as a reason readers shouldn't complain about doing homework to catch up on his stories.
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Hickman is one of my favorite writers but that position is flat out wrong. If you have to look to an external source to understand what a writer is doing then the writer has failed. 


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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 20 January 2019 at 11:44am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Were those simpler times? Yes, of course. There were no subplots, no continued stories, no deep diving into the characters personalities and back stories. But for the target audience—of which I was on the leading edge—it was all that was needed.
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Y’know, the lighting-fast pace of modern comics may have a more “realistic” feel in terms of dialogue and whatnot, but those dense old comics not only packed a ton of content into even a 12-page story, but they also clearly laid out characters and conflicts. 

I get the idea that comic dialogue, captions, and thought balloons can often seem clunky (real people don’t usually have time to think three paragraphs’ worth of thoughts as they’re being punched in the face, after all), but I think comic writing necessarily has a certain style. All of that dialogue and whatnot is there to pack in the plot/character/action information necessary to make the storytelling clear for a non-live-action medium. 

In comics, you don’t have things like montage editing, music, and nuances of vocal intonation to convey action beats, emotions, and characterization. The art and words have to work together to get the maximum number of points across in the most efficient way possible. 22 pages (which can be read in five minutes) of monosyllabic dialogue and splash-page poster-type images don’t make for good and clear storytelling. 


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 21 January 2019 at 10:14am
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 21 January 2019 at 3:28am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I feel like artists mostly want to draw the classic versions of the characters, while modern writers seem to want to do their own spin on them--or rather the ideas that the editors okay are the writers' pitched ideas that turn things on their heads.  When powerhouse artist/writers like Alan Davis or Jim Starlin do a mini-series or special, they gravitate to the classic versions (even if they not in continuity).  Likewise, if you ever see sketchbooks or art for sale by star artists, the character versions used are always the classics.

I don't know how much we can blame the writers though.  If a writer pitches "I want to do a series of status quo 1960's-80's style Batman stories where nothing changes," I doubt today's editors have the imagination to see how great that could be.  If the writer instead pitches "Everything you know about Batman is wrong!" I think the editor thinks "That's what the readers want!"  Or--

"Captain America is a Hydra agent!"
"Let's kill Speedy!"  (Or Aunt May!  Or Elongated Man!  Or Namor!  Or Prof. X!  Etc.)
"Let's make Thor a woman!"
"Let's make the Hulk non-white!"  (Or Iron Man!  Or Spider-Man!  Or Aqualad!  Etc.)
"Let's destroy the world and reboot everything!"

I think the editors just want something crazy that will spike sales for a few months and they don't realize that good, strong, consistent stories about iconic characters told by consistent creative teams are what will build strong sales for years.
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 21 January 2019 at 6:04am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Hickman, in my mind, is saying "If you don't get my story, that's YOUR fault". Grant Morrison fans have told me that I'm not sophisticated enough as a reader when I say I don't get most of his stories. 

I also think there's a lot of "This writer is an Indy darling and we should let them tell THEIR story with OUR character". They want the fans of the writer as well as the fans of the character. You get Rick Remender's fans to read Captain America but those fans don't want the classic Captain America type book, they want an edgier one ala Fear Agent. It seems Joe Quesada, no fan of continuity, felt this way (let's make the news with a controversy!). Axel Alonso introduced the concept of titles as "seasons" and I feel pandered to writers and artists to the point that they would do company wide re-designs on characters to go with their new status quo. With both of these guys in charge at Marvel, look how many "What you thought you knew about this character is wrong!" stories Marvel has done under their respective periods.

I've said it before: There's no editor at Marvel that will tell a superstar writer "That doesn't work for this character".


Edited by Shawn Kane on 21 January 2019 at 6:09am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 January 2019 at 6:22am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Is it the song or the singer?

As I’ve noted many times, there often seems to be two kinds of writers. One is handed Captain Amazing, and asks “Can I tell good Captain Amazing stories?” The other asks “Can I use Captain Amazing to tell my stories?”

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Trevor Thompson
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Posted: 21 January 2019 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Seems to me there was a time at Marvel when an artist or writer knew what they were getting into when they went to work for them. The characters they drew or wrote were already established and it was just a case of continuing their characterization (and of course writing good stories). Now it appears as if the books are creator owned and they can do whatever they want with them. Captain America an agent of Hydra?! Really?! He would never ever do that. I guess it's Kewl or shocking.

To be honest. I'm clearly not their target audience. They're after fan boys. How can they make them happy.


Edited by Trevor Thompson on 21 January 2019 at 6:49am
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 21 January 2019 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

The point being that "abnormal" is in the eye of the beholder and that if you're going to take an axe to the whole tree to plant a new one, you shouldn't play favorites just because you're in a position to give your childhood preferential treatment.

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I think the status quo circa 1983 was pretty "normal" in that it reflected what the "general public" knew about those characters. Some things were different but not THAT different.

And it has nothing to do with what I personally like. I like Wally West as the Flash. I like Tim Drake. I like Barbara as Oracle. Etc.

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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 21 January 2019 at 7:54am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

"They're after fan boys."

I don't think that's been the case in recent years, if anything ,I believe they think fan boys will be there regardless. I think the idea recently was to get the movie fan, the Image reader, and other non-traditional readers (although never really kids for some reason). The only fan boy uprising was the Comicsgate crowd which, as it continued, you could see that they taking it to a personal level on creators. I think that C.B. Cebulski is tasked with trying to pull that pendulum back from how far it swung to the "Let's Change Everything" era under Axel Alonso. I, personally, feel X-Men Elsewhen by John Byrne would be a great move in that direction. Let newer fans have Morrison/Whedon/Brubaker/Fraction/Aaron/Bendis' version of the X-Men, and let fans of a smaller cast enjoy an X-Men book by a legendary creator.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 January 2019 at 8:27am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I, personally, feel X-Men Elsewhen by John Byrne would be a great move in that direction. Let newer fans have Morrison/Whedon/Brubaker/Fraction/Aaron/Bendis' version of the X-Men, and let fans of a smaller cast enjoy an X-Men book by a legendary creator.

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Why treat it as an either/or? As I've said, I don't want to sell ELSEWHEN purely on nostalgia. It has to appeal to the "modern audience" too. Hopefully that modern audience has a sufficiently sophisticated palette that it can handle more than one flavor.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 January 2019 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Chatting with Walt Simonson, and the subject of continuity came up. He offered his view, paraphrasing another writer in a different context: Continuity is a good servant, but a poor master.
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Brennan Voboril
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Posted: 21 January 2019 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

That's a wise way to look at it.  

Honestly, the need to read 50 zillion books to know what is going on, turned me off a long time ago.  I think it was mainly at Marvel, but admit I could be wrong and it plagued DC just as much.  I guess Crisis was continuity dogma gone crazy? 
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 21 January 2019 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Why treat it as an either/or? As I've said, I don't want to sell ELSEWHEN purely on nostalgia. It has to appeal to the "modern audience" too. 

Oh for sure, it wouldn't be a nostalgia trip. It's my favorite creator working with characters I love but the book would be free of all the muddle that hangs over the current X-Titles. I certainly wouldn't drop the current Marvel books that I purchase plus it would be the perfect new reader book. The Ultimate line started just as I was getting back into comics and it was suggested to me to read the Ultimate books due to it being a small line and the stories had the classic Marvel feel if I didn't want to have to catch up on the previous 7 years of Marvel that I missed. I did read the Ultimate books and felt like they were a decent idea with some different takes on the characters (until they started to get bogged down with some stuff I didn't like) but I returned to the Universe I knew and it wasn't hard to figure things out. Then Bendis was given the Avengers...
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