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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
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| Posted: 18 January 2019 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | 1
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Derek, don't forget that was the premise behind 1999's "Hypertime" as well. And yet the reboots continue to roll...
I was once a big, big fan of "deep cut" style references to older characters. Showcase #100 was chockablock with them, from Windy and Willy, to Binky, to Dolphin, and Fireman Farrell. One thing they did right, that current creators do not seem capable of, however, is that they did the characters straight, as if this event were simply the next thing that happened to them after the last time we saw them.
Modern creators must re-invent the Wonder Twins, come up with an edgy new take on Marvin and Wendy, root about in the dark underbelly of the Robert Crane Robotman concept to find something ugly and menacing in the character... No one can leave anything from the past alone. Everything must be re-examined through a new lens and re-interpreted for today's audiences...
Which is fine. Whatever. But I'm never going to buy such a book. I might actually buy an Angel and the Ape comic if it were anything even slightly like the original. But no one wants to do that. Apparently, it is now cognitively impossible for anyone to imagine doing so. Sam must be a telepathically advanced nephew of Gorilla Grodd and Angel must be a hard-bitten, cynical crack shot who will blow your balls off for looking sideways at her. So, Angel and the Ape go their way, and I go mine. Best of luck, however, to Wonderdog, the carnivorous, murdering Hell-Hound.
Edited by Brian Hague on 18 January 2019 at 4:32pm
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 18 January 2019 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | 2
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I think what it comes down to is the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction.
Early on, these books were disposable mass entertainment. Done-in-one stories with little-to-no sense of what had come before.
Then, we started seeing the universe-building stuff, which Marvel kicked into overdrive in the 60s. Interconnected titles and characters. Multi-part, continued stories. A sense that it was all one giant epic, with numerous references to what had come before.
For a while, there was a sweet spot, where the books were still accessible, but also had a sense of continuity and history.
Over the past few decades, though, it's gone full "We Need An Encyclopedia To Understand This Stuff". Constant reboots, destructive, archaelogical sequels to decades-old stories, etc.
More and more, I'm thinking that so many of these properties have a viable shelf-life of around 30 years or so before they become milked to death, mired in too much continuity baggage, get taken over by fans-turned-pro, or get taken over by people who just don't understand and/or don't respect the material.
Certain characters can be reinvented for decades (Superman, Batman, etc.), but the ones with a more concrete continuity seem to have more limited options. There might just be a correlation between longevity and being free of continuity shackles. Of course, there are pros and cons to both styles of storytelling. Mileage may vary.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6104
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| Posted: 18 January 2019 at 7:31pm | IP Logged | 3
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Greg: For a while, there was a sweet spot, where the books were still
accessible, but also had a sense of continuity and history.
**
The terrible part as a fan who has come to grip with the damage that
"archaeologists" do is that it is all too easy to see how paradise could have
been saved.
If only the rules had been written down ahead of time, they could have been
followed: make books perpetually accessible, perpetually in a present, with
the appearance of change, but no real change.
The fact is, however, that comics had to feel their way blindly to the "sweet
spot" you mention. It was almost over before anyone realized it had been
truly reached.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 18 January 2019 at 8:04pm | IP Logged | 4
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Precisely, Mark.
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7622
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| Posted: 18 January 2019 at 8:26pm | IP Logged | 5
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Eric S quoted one of my comments as part of what is wrong @ the moment - because I had said that the current Batman comic retained the New 52 continuity.
He also had said that he used to read comics for the characters & stories, not the writers.
I agree. My original, quoted statement had been about a specific issue & was not a comment on why I read the book. My second statement, that had not been quoted, was that I was liking the ncurrent Batman run, that is being written by Tom King.
Now. I’m liking that run because I think it has good stories & art & I like how Batman is being written & drawn. Did I buy it because Tom King was writing it? Tangentially, yes. Because I had read good reviews & those reviews mentioned his name. But I actually bought it because I was liking the plots those reviews had mentioned & thought I would give it a go. Because it was Batman & I like Batman as a character.
I don’t Buy Mister Miracle because I don’t feel a connection with that character.
So I agree wholeheartedly with Eric S - it should be about the characters
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Shawn Kane
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 3239
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| Posted: 19 January 2019 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 6
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Believe it or not, the New 52 brought a bunch of younger readers into my LCS. Rebirth ran off some of them, not to mention the usual "Buying comics was cool but I'm into something else now" type of reader left but most stayed. I was talking to a guy the other night who loves Green Lantern and he was telling me that he's only been a fan for 7 years. He started with the New 52. He stuck with Green Lantern because as he got excited and bought back issues, Green Lantern was the most like it's then-current version. He liked Superman but Rebirth was his jumping off point. That was my jumping-back-on point. Continuity matters more to some, especially back issue buyers but many of younger readers I talk to prefer to look for "Simonson's Thor" or "Byrne's Fantastic Four" based on how that material is introduced to them.
Edited by Shawn Kane on 19 January 2019 at 7:22am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132302
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| Posted: 19 January 2019 at 8:08am | IP Logged | 7
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One of the saddest questions I started hearing at cons about 30 years ago was “What’s a good jumping on point?” That demonstrated just how far off the rails we’d gone. EVERY issue should be a “jumping on point”. But “writing for the trade” and other such nonsense has caused writers and editors to turn up their noses at the most basic rules of storytelling in serial form.
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Eric White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1066
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| Posted: 19 January 2019 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 8
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I've been a comic fan since 1973 but got tired of comics in the late 90s and only bought comics based on artists I loved. DC's New 52 got me reading their line again and I was enjoying most of the comics they were publishing...so of course a few years into it they blew it all up.
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Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
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| Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:02am | IP Logged | 9
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Bendis brought back the Connor Kent Superboy, The Wonder Twins, Dial H for Hero, and has hinted that the Legion will also be returning (although which version, who knows) so that means that anybody can, any iteration/version - and I think that's kind of cool.
The Legion that will be coming back (eventually) will be the more-or-less original iteration -- the one we saw in Superman: Secret Origin and the last Legion series that Paul Levitz wrote.
Personally, I thought the New 52 was a horrible idea and nothing has changed my mind. The best stories from that era could have easily been part of the pre-2011 continuity -- most of Scott Snyder's run on BATMAN, Gail Simone's run on BATGIRL (with minor alterations), Geoff Johns finishing up his GREEN LANTERN run, maybe some others.
I really hated DC taking the characters from STORMWATCH/THE AUTHORITY and shoving them into the mainstream DCU. Total mismatch. (All erased now, thank god, except maybe for Apollo and Midnighter.)
Also hated the utterly depressing "disaster porn" new version of Earth 2. And all the Jim Lee costumes for the core Justice League members with all the extraneous lines (and armor[!!] for Superman!).
The only reboot I would've accepted would've been a near-total "back to basics" -- Dick Grayson is a teenage Robin, Wally West is a teenage Flash, Barbara Gordon is a young-adult Batgirl, Barry Allen (and Supergirl) never died, the Justice Society and Infinity Inc. live on Earth-Two (always at least 20 years behind Earth-One), etc.
Basically, "back to 1983" with a few tweaked details to remove the silliest stuff from various characters' back-stories.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 10
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One of the saddest questions I started hearing at cons about 30 years ago was “What’s a good jumping on point?” That demonstrated just how far off the rails we’d gone. EVERY issue should be a “jumping on point”. But “writing for the trade” and other such nonsense has caused writers and editors to turn up their noses at the most basic rules of storytelling in serial form.++++++++
When things are working correctly, a new reader should think, “I don’t necessarily understand everything I’m seeing, but this is an entertaining story, and I’m intrigued enough to seek out more”, rather than, “I have no idea what’s going on, and I don’t want to have to buy 20 books just to enjoy and understand this one.”.
There’s a certain irony that, in this age of instant gratification, the comic industry has gone completely in the opposite direction. A single comic is no longer a combination of a satisfying one-off AND an enticement to seek out more.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132302
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| Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:20am | IP Logged | 11
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I will likely never forget one particular writer demanding “if you don’t understand this, why are you here?”sigh
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DW Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 June 2012
Posts: 444
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| Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:34am | IP Logged | 12
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I found the pro who wrote that particular quote and was appalled.
Don Z
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