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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 7:42am | IP Logged | 1
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At one point in the synopsis, Lee states that the FF's mission is to be the first humans to reach Mars. Then he adds an entire side paragraph stating that "maybe we better make this a flight to the STARS" rather than Mars, because a the rate the Russian space program is progressing, he's concerned that Russians will reach Mars before the issue hits the stands. This certainly seems suggestive that Stan and Jack had talked before and decided it would be a mission to Mars, but now Stan is thinking better of it, and initiating further discussion with Jack. If that was not the case, why would he even bother with typing out his rationale for not making it a mission to Mars? If he had second thoughts as he was typing, he likely would have just gone back and crossed out Mars and written in "the stars." Why would he need to go into a lengthy explanation of the change if Jack was not even aware it was a change because they'd never discussed it before?•• I often include "asides" in my plots. When I am typing up the outline for the artist, other elements will occur to me, which I will include parenthetically, since they may not make it into the final cut.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 7:43am | IP Logged | 2
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"After kicking it around with Martin and Jack for a while I decided to call our quaint quartet the Fantastic Four." **
That reads to me as if it was the NAME that was being "kicked around".
++++
You read that sentence like you read the Second Amendment, JB -- paying attention to every word. Silly!
Edited by Michael Penn on 22 May 2018 at 7:44am
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Brian Miller
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 7:43am | IP Logged | 3
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Yeah. It seems pretty simple.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 9:38am | IP Logged | 4
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https://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2011/04/marvel-worldwide-inc -et-al-v-kirby-et_10.html••• That site loses a lot of credility, using a doctored picture of Stan.
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Michael Penn
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 5
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Changing Stan Lee from, in all his inveterate good fun, throwing up a web-shooter pose to... flipping the bird? Taking the trouble to do that? To sully a class act? Talk about no life!
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 6
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This is so bizarre, people having such big issues with Stan "The Man"... maybe they take the nicknames seriously and really think they are striking a blow against "The Man" in the generic? Coming especially at this time in his life it is particularly uncool and even sick.
I've seen some people messing with photos of various left type protesters' signs and then piling on the ridicule, and photos of Michelle Obama (to make her look wider)... does that actually work for anybody? De-evolution in progress?
I think Stan had people turning into monsters on the brain, I don't see that aspect in Kirby before or later solo all that much... the FF are borderline monsterish in the first few stories with monster type adversaries, the Hulk is the most obvious monster man, Spider-man was a menace and creepy and fought a lizard monster guy and a sand guy among others, the X-men were shunned and feared freaks with a circus sideshow Blob guy as an early villain, Doctor Strange battled weird monster creatures in other dimensions, Ant-man was an incredible shrinking man, Iron Man a heavy lumbering Thing-like tank, Thor fought all sort of giants and trolls and plain old monsters, I see the monster angles as a Stan Lee thing.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | 7
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John Byrne wrote:
| That reads to me as if it was the NAME that was being "kicked around". |
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True. But it seems unlikely to me that Stan would have a discussion with Jack about the series title without also discussing the characters/concept of the series (how could Jack venture an opinion about the title if he knew nothing about the series)? And given the way they worked, it seems likely that if they did have such a discussion about the characters/concept, Jack would offer suggestions... particularly if he knew he was going to be drawing the book.
At any rate, regardless of how we parse this one sentence by Stan, it seems to me that the preponderance of evidence supports the notion that Kirby had input into the creation of the plot synopsis.
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Wallace Sellars
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 4:28pm | IP Logged | 8
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It feels like some people are more interested in diminishing the importance of
Stan Lee's contributions than seeing Jack Kirby get his due.
I take the Jesse B. Semple view. Jack and Stan created some great characters
together. I'm grateful to both, and you should be, too.
'Nuff said?
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Matt Hawes
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| Posted: 22 May 2018 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | 9
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Wallace Sellars wrote:
...It feels like some people are more interested in diminishing the importance of
Stan Lee's contributions than seeing Jack Kirby get his due...
...Jack and Stan created some great characters
together. I'm grateful to both, and you should be, too.. |
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Exactly to both points!
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Michael Penn
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| Posted: 23 May 2018 at 6:15am | IP Logged | 10
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JB has made a few comments here and in another thread that in my opinion bear repeating.
QUOTE:
| Stan and Jack had a perfect synergy. The whole was greater than the sum of the parts. Neither had such great success on his own as they did together. [...]
The "Marvel Method" creates a lot of smudging and blurring when it comes to defining who created what. So does the serial nature of comics. [...]
"Where was your office at Marvel? I seem to have forgotten. . . " |
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What's likely or unlikely about how much Stan Lee created or not is definitely far beyond anything I would feel comfortable pronouncing. I would not myself even consider any of this debate (so-called) important except for the apparent drive some have, as Wallace said, diminish Stan Lee's legacy. It seems vital to them to liken Stan to Bob Kane, e.g., regarding Spider-Man they say that Stan had at best maybe 1% of the character first in mind but after Ditko did 99% of the work Stan took the credit. In that case, there's no doubt that Spider-Man originated with Stan Lee, but still his role as co-creator just must be lessened. And regarding the Fantastic Four, Stan even having the original idea, whatever it was, for the group, that itself just must be questioned, attacked, based essentially on Stan Lee either being a liar or averring that his, so they say, "famously poor memory" is to blame for his, again, taking the credit, this time from Jack Kirby. (The bad memory claim is merely an indirect way of attacking Stan, not calling him a liar outright, yet standing firm that Stan refuses to correct the record when his faulty remembrance has been continually confronted with the facts over the decades.)
I don't know what's likely or not about who conceived of what first and when, and who contributed what subsequently and when, but I've yet to see anything showing Stan Lee to be a liar about who deserves credit -- including himself.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 23 May 2018 at 7:11am | IP Logged | 11
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Much of the idea that Stan "took all the credit" likely springs from so many fans -- even down to today -- not understanding how the "Marvel Method" worked. During my time on UNCANNY X-MEN, for instance, it was a source of great frustration to me that so many fans assumed that Chris wrote a full script, telling me what to draw. They knew nothing of the plot/pencils/script approach, or that not long after I started on the book we got rid of written plots all together.*So, when Stan credited himself as "writer", some assumed he was claiming to have come up with the whole thing. ---------------- * In something of a reversal of the Lee/Kirby scenario, I've been convinced for years that at least part of my reputation for having a giant ego comes from all those years at cons, where I so often tried to explain that elements the fans thought came from Chris actually came from me.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 23 May 2018 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 12
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True. But it seems unlikely to me that Stan would have a discussion with Jack about the series title without also discussing the characters/concept of the series (how could Jack venture an opinion about the title if he knew nothing about the series)?••• "Hey, Jackie Boy! I've got an idea for a series about four people with superpowers. Whadaya think we should call it?"
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