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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
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| Posted: 08 February 2018 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 1
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I've been arguing against the Copelands ever since I first became a Christian 35 years ago and read the Bible. Please don't judge all of us Christians by their crazy beliefs! Judge us by our own crazy beliefs--of a loving Creator who answers heartfelt prayers.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 08 February 2018 at 8:15pm | IP Logged | 2
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Judge us by our own crazy beliefs--of a loving Creator who answers heartfelt prayers.••• Sort this out for me: all of the universe is God's plan, and God's plan is, by definition, perfect. So prayer is asking God to change his perfect plan, to do something less than perfect. Am I missing something?
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
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| Posted: 08 February 2018 at 10:36pm | IP Logged | 3
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I think the problem a lot of people have (non-believers AND some believers) is that they fail to realize that this reality is sort of the "Middle Ground" (as a comic book fan, I find myself wanting to call it "Midgard" but that would just confuse things). This is not Heaven, where everything is perfect, nor is it Hell where everything is awful. Different scriptures say that in Heaven "Every tear will be wiped away" while in Hell "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Here, we cry sometimes, and we laugh other times.
God is perfect and His plan is perfect, but we are not perfect and this world has become imperfect. You can disagree with it, and then I can explain how it all comes down to God not wanting "worship robots" but rather children who come to Him of their own volition and that's only possible in a place where bad things can happen to good people and good things can happen to bad people.
This is a nursery and we're all babies trying to make sense of things out in the hall.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2292
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| Posted: 08 February 2018 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | 4
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JB, did you ever plot out a story where you had a solid outline but then a character or two started going their own way? In a sense "asking" you to change your plan. Prayer is like that. And sometimes the Author says "OK!" and other times, the answer is "No."
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
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| Posted: 08 February 2018 at 10:54pm | IP Logged | 5
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QUOTE:
| This is a nursery and we're all babies trying to make sense of things out in the hall. |
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If this is true, then how can you claim this:
QUOTE:
| God is perfect and His plan is perfect, but we are not perfect and this world has become imperfect. You can disagree with it, and then I can explain how it all comes down to God not wanting "worship robots" but rather children who come to Him of their own volition and that's only possible in a place where bad things can happen to good people and good things can happen to bad people. |
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You can’t claim to know God’s intentions and motives while claiming that man is imperfect and struggling to understand God.
As an aside, a God that serves out any form of eternal punishment is evil.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 08 February 2018 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | 6
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God is perfect and His plan is perfect, but we are not perfect and this world has become imperfect. •• Typically, you are trying to have your Kate, and Edith too. God is perfect, his Plan is perfect -- and each and every one of us is part of that Plan. Whatever we do, whatever we endure, all happening because God wants it to happen. The old trifecta: Bad things happen because God makes them happen, or because he lets them happen, or because he is powerless to prevent them from happening. No other choices available. Same for Good things. Personally, I prefer the old Hebrew teachings that God created this world, send down the Manuel and the Prophets to interpret it, and then moved on. He's over in another county now, pulling another Creation. We are all alone. The Age of Miracles has passed. ++++++++++++ JB, did you ever plot out a story where you had a solid outline but then a character or two started going their own way? In a sense "asking" you to change your plan. Prayer is like that. And sometimes the Author says "OK!" and other times, the answer is "No." •• And when the Author says "No," his creations are left to suffer? Even tho they are his creations, and their suffering is his doing. God is Love -- and yet it was his Son who painted for us the first verbal portrait of the eternal torment that awaited us if we messed up in our piddling few years on Earth. Nice.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 09 February 2018 at 12:00am | IP Logged | 7
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"You can’t claim to know God’s intentions and motives while claiming that man is imperfect and struggling to understand God."
Sure I can. I understand some things and I don't understand other things, or I understand incompletely, due to my own limitations.
"And when the Author says "No," his creations are left to suffer? Even tho they are his creations, and their suffering is his doing."
I've asked for plenty of things that, in hindsight, were not the best for me. (A couple of women that I was madly in love with at the time spring to mind, and now looking back I go "Whew!") I guess I should have spelled out that sometimes the answer is "No, that wouldn't be good for you." Other times, the answer could also be "Wait." I've prayed for some things that happened in half an hour, other things took two weeks, and still other things were granted after ten years. I've learned patience.
As for the other points (in short, "Bad things happen, therefore God must be bad"), like I said, this is the middle ground. This is the place where we scrape knees and risk death, where we are tempted or rise above temptation, where we fear or are brave--time enough for perfection and immortality later. If we were in Heaven and bad things still happened to us, then your points would be valid.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
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| Posted: 09 February 2018 at 12:08am | IP Logged | 8
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Sure I can. I understand some things and I don't understand other things, or I understand incompletely, due to my own limitations.
——
If you don’t understand completely, how do you know which is which?
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 09 February 2018 at 1:10am | IP Logged | 9
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It's not a matter of one or the other, it's a matter of degrees. The things I'm sharing are the culmination of 30, 40 years of study, prayer, reading the Bible, and personal experience. Hopefully, I will have another 30 or 40 years to learn more.
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Michael Roberts
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| Posted: 09 February 2018 at 1:34am | IP Logged | 10
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It's not a matter of one or the other, it's a matter of degrees. The things I'm sharing are the culmination of 30, 40 years of study, prayer, reading the Bible, and personal experience. Hopefully, I will have another 30 or 40 years to learn more.
——
Which doesn’t really answer things. If your understanding is incomplete, whether be it because of time or human limitations, how can you claim to understand God’s intentions or motives? All you have is a best guess based on your limitations.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
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Posts: 2292
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| Posted: 09 February 2018 at 8:09am | IP Logged | 11
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It sounds like your argument is that I have to know everything to know some things, and I have to disagree with that.
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Dale Lerette
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 March 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 09 February 2018 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 12
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As someone who follows matters of faith closely I find this discussion illuminating.
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