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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132064
Posted: 05 January 2018 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I don't recall any of those as "laughable".
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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

My history is not as exhaustive as others (I have read many reprints) but was surprised to read them described as laughable.

UK reprint title MIGHTY WORLD OF MARVEL reprinted the early Daredevil tales (in black and white) and it seemed to be totally straight and non-laughable to me.
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 3:09pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Altho mostly described as "mindless ", there's really more to the Man-Thing than that. He/It is kind of a "reactive agent", triggered to action by outside events. Sometimes, the function can also be that of a catalyst.
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Phillip L Lightfoot
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Even the goofiest character is only one good take away from being a superstar.  Look at Rocket Raccoon!
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Joe Hollon
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Two things:

1- Man-Thing is one of my very favorite characters,
glad some others already chimed in to comment on that
one.
2- Ghost Rider- not sure what the public opinion was
at the time of the original comics but reading the
ESSENTIAL collection years back Ghost Rider makes a
great example of a character who was written so people
would think he was lame...constantly people are
referring to him as the "guy in the skull mask" or the
"flaming mask". That's bad writing! He's a guy WITH
A FLAMING SKULL!!! People seeing him should be
terrified not commenting that he looks like a guy in a
mask! Bad writing...or at least bad scripting...
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

JB nailed it re: Man-Thing. I tend to think of him as a "plot device" more than anything else. 

As for the Hulk -- he was no joke when Stan Lee wrote him. Or Roy Thomas, or Roger Stern, or Len Wein (granted, it depends on which story), or Steve Englehart (same -- I hated the idea of Betty Ross as the Harpy), or Peter David (at least during the Gray Hulk days). 

The biggest problem with writing the simpleton version of the Hulk is that writers often made him talk too damn much. Then he sounded absurd. Lee didn't even have him talk in the third person all the time. He actually said "I" and "me" sometimes.

I'll admit that for a time Marvel had so many goofy villains that I had no problem with Mark Gruenwald's "Scourge" character killing them all. Justice is served, indeed. 
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Depends on what a "hero" is. Many of the early-era Image characters are just generic costumes given a name like "StryfeFire" or "BluddWulf". You can't salvage something that was not fully created in the first place. 
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I'd say that Aquaman might be unsalvageable simply because the public has come to see him as a joke.  The movie version had to change him so much, it's like another character--and I still think his solo movie might flop.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

JB, ever have any interest in doing the Man-Thing?
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 9:27pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

JB, ever have any interest in doing the Man-Thing?

•••

Yes and no. I find the character very intriguing, but only in an abstract sense. Too much would have to change for me to actually work on the book.

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 10:13pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

For what it's worth, Cyclops was allowed a certain amount of "redemption" in the death of Xavier, the logic being that he was under the influence of the Phoenix Entity at the time and not in full control of his actions. While the storyline lacked the slow build that the original Phoenix Saga had (despite the number of issues thrown at it), the idea was that Scott was not ultimately responsible for his actions remained more or less the same as the logic used in the original story, before the reveal that Jean was never on-panel as the Phoenix at all. 

As for the romance with Frost, well, he's got a weakness for shapely telepaths who are at the top of their game. Who among us doesn't have a similar blind spot in their romantic history? They have since broken up if that helps at all. Now he's dating the Shadow King. Okay, no, not really...

I don't believe any character is a complete non-starter. I do think it would be problematic to make a series centered around Marvel's Aquarian. From his origin as a lame Superman joke to his pacifistic role as a Christ figure, and his name referencing the late Sixties in American culture, it would be a chore to recontextualize and reimagine everything to make him sell. 

Another Gruenwald concoction*, the Grapplers, a pro-wrestling themed Female Furies tribute band, seem awkward as well, but who knows? A little of Netflix's G.L.O.W. thrown together with a dash of Orange Is the New Black, seasoned throughout with some of Lena Dunham's Girls, and you might have something. Gail Simone fans would flock to the book if it had her name on it.

Jazz, a particular low point in one of DC's character-generation summer crossovers, was a vacuous skatepunk who liked to use his power of suggestion to have Legionnaire heroines take their clothes off for him. Dated, politically tone deaf, repulsive, and I'll bet Peter Milligan or Warren Ellis could still sell the hell out of him as a Vertigo-style book.

Any character can have some sort of potential somewhere, somehow. Whether it would be worth the effort of doing is another matter.

* The character started as Steve Gerber's Wundarr, but the Aquarian re-imagining is Gruenwald's, I believe.


Edited by Brian Hague on 05 January 2018 at 10:20pm
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Joseph Gauthier
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 11:18pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I don't believe any character is a complete non-starter.
........

Remind me to tell you sometime about the Iron Man villain I made up when I was 12.
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