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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 11:58am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

This habit of applying rules from on media to another is not nee, and the passage of years has made it no less annoying.

One of my earliest encounters online was with a meathead who insisted that comicbook lettering was "rude". His reason? ALL CAPS means SHOUTING.

sigh

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Drew Spence
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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply


Why do you make the balloons so square, Drew?

Let me ask you, where in life does text ever fall into neat round circles? And how does a rounded justified circle mean easier to read? No (not really no, but rarely as I'm trying to be dramatic) letter, no note, no text, no book or article or menu or billboard has usually been written in the style of comics.

- I see my lettering technique as more natural to the way we are used to reading text. Be glad I'm not indenting. lol

I find the square shape eliminates extra space around the text and space is at a premium- as my fonts are larger- for the digital/internet/mobile delivery medium.




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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Let me ask you, where in life does text ever fall into neat round circles? And how does a rounded justified circle mean easier to read? No (not really no, but rarely as I'm trying to be dramatic) letter, no note, no text, no book or article or menu or billboard has usually been written in the style of comics.

•••

But comics have. If you don't want to follow the established forms, go work in another medium. This is a wheel in no need of reinventing.

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Drew Spence
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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

C'mon John, you're being mean.

Do I need to post an image of comics from 1960 next to an image of comics in 2017?

They look nothing alike.

Comics(movies and basically artists)  have ALWAYS taken advantage of the available technology. When paper got cheaper, they used better paper. When they found a new way to ink, the coloring technique and style changed.

YOU, you of all people, a master illustrator- now has a new series that's pushing boundaries.
Yes, you kept some things traditional, but really? Are you in a position to discuss reinventing a wheel when your Star Trek is so ground breaking?


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Peter Martin
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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Written text is often seen in rectangles as you rightly observe. Though speech balloons are text, they are supposed to convey speech, not written word. I would contend this is a good reason to go with a rounder, more organic shape, especially as there is a well-established convention that notifies a reader that round is speech and square is narration or caption.

To suggest technology has opened up the possibility of letterers drawing a rectangular balloon is disingenuous. There's a reason letterers in the past have used that shape balloon for the Vision -- it evokes something mechanical, like an LED display. For me, at least.
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Drew Spence
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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I agree with your points. I also think there are several other indicators, so many so that - the difference between my rounded rectangle balloon and the rigid squared balloon I use are superseded by the coloring (did you ever see gradient narration panels in traditional comics? No, but that's what I meant by technology. I can do things that were impossible or too difficult to be practical.

Speech has arrows linking to the characters speaking ( the whole point of this thread) and the narration does not- and the location is another point (no pun, again)  --> it's lower in the frame and the speech hovers above the characters head as to express, almost hot air rising.

Also, if everyone is sensitive to fonts, I use different fonts for the narrator and human speech. Both very easy to read. Fonts can't be so jarring, but then also too subtle to note a difference.

That's all deliberate. Lots of comics use different balloon shapes, but I see wanting things to be as comfortable as possible. I will continue to consider all aspects of your ideas and see what's the best balance between my artistic sensibilities and what the readers are used to.

I must pause to thank you guys for all this detailed feedback.


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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Drew, if you're still reading, you point
out that today's comics look nothing like
those of the 1960's. While I agree, is
that to the medium's benefit or its
detriment.

I'm the guy that believes rectangles are
used for captions, and should be used by a
third person narrator. These days, the
third person narration is gone, as is
thought balloons. The text used in thought
balloons is now found in the captions.
Now, this is a way to deliver a story, but
it, imo, takes a tool out of the toolbox.
In the case of today's artists, I feel
there are many who can draw pretty
pictures but not many are great
storytellers like a John Jr. or John Byrne
or Greg Capullo. A third person narrator
would come in handy when I can't
understand what exactly it is I'm looking
at.
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Okay, an image of comics from 1960 -




...and an image of a 2017 comic -


Aside from the art styles/panel layout, the balloon style and text looks similar, doesn't it? 'Course, I like the dynamic, larger, and clearer lettering of the older page. (Some things don't need to change just because of advanced technology. Just my two cents.)

-C!



Edited by Charles Valderrama on 22 September 2017 at 2:51pm
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Drew Spence
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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Okay, I respect all comments and always read what's said. I'm old school. lol

is that to the medium's benefit or its detriment (?)
Well, I like classic comics, but not too far back. I hated when DC was still having characters running around in yellow shirts, purple ties, green pants and fedoras.

I wasn't THAT big a fan when Marvel started the teen-mutant-angst thing.
I also hated the yellow thin paper that you could see through. I hated the 99cent ads in the back and those horrible army men that promised 1,000 army men for, like $20 bucks and they were no green army men!

I liked Image and Eclipse and First comics- mostly because of the vibrant colors and better stock of paper. Also Marvel seemed to have all their characters on a leash. Wolverine would pop his claws in every issue and then...do...nothing....

Eventually the SNIKT meant nothing.
I always thought Marvel had the better art and DC had the better stories.
A lot of the new comics were rip-offs of the older comics.

Somewhere comics got corny and I only read graphic novels. It was too much to need to read Hulk #256 to see what happens in Thor #409.

Somewhere in there was always Heavy Metal magazine. Buried in the hormonal dumps were some incredible artwork and punchline stories.
I love the Savage Sword of Conan. All the reprints too. the bigger, the better.

So all of that is really where I'm coming from. I tend to see what I like across all forms of media- and that is pretty much how I found my voice. I like something and when it shows up, I like it. Some video games have it, some movies, some music and some comics.

My choice of word balloons wasn't trying to reinvent the wheel or trying to consciously break some unwritten rule or tradition. The look I use, is honestly what I think looks better. I've seen stark white and I have used rounded balloons before. And yep, I have followed a lot of conventions.

It sucks that someone may be turned off to the point they ,miss everything else. But I gotta follow my heart.
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Drew Spence
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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Aside from the art styles/panel layout....

That's enough to make them different animals.
There are so many "rules" being broken by the second example, it's hard to ignore all of them and just say "see, the text balloons are similar" as a case for your argument.

We have 2 things similar, font and balloon shape.
I count a dozen different, easily.

But again, I get your point clearly.
Believe me, I understand what you are saying.
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

There are so many "rules" being broken by the second example, it's hard to ignore all of them and just say "see, the text balloons are similar" as a case for your argument.

••••••••

I only referred to the text balloons because that's the subject of this thread - plus that 2017 comic page was the quickest image i could find.

Otherwise, I get what you saying and honestly... if your audience enjoys your digital series as you present it to them, that's great! In some instances, it is okay to think OUTSIDE the box. :)

-C!
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Robert Shepherd
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Posted: 22 September 2017 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Drew, Up front, I've looked at your latest book, but have not read it.

My stance on the whole lettering debate is more middle ground with a lean toward tradition. I don't view traditional approaches as something we do just because "they" did it that way. I view traditional approaches as more tried-and-true having stood the test of time. But, I hear both sides of the debate and feel both sides make valid points.

I just took a look at your link to (I assume) your latest book. Right off the bat, I can say your 3D work is getting better. I think your earlier 3D work looked stiff (sorry). Believe me, I know how hard it is to get 3D characters in stills to look natural. So kudos there. Keep fine tuning your style. I see improvements, and you still have areas to build on, but good job overall.

Your hands are good in some ares and not as good in others. In my opinion more time should be spent making the hands look natural and not stiff. I know...I know....easy for me to say, but I think it is a constructive observation. I'd argue hands are the most important body part to get right in terms of body language and posing.

I don't know if your 3D app is strong with morph targets for the facial expressions but I'd build a bigger facial library and work in more facial expressions if possible. 

As for the dialoge balloons. Again I think you're doing a much better job in this book than in past books. but here are a couple observations I've made.

As much as I thought I was ok trying out grey text for whispering, I don't think it comes across that well, as is. It could be that the body language of the character at the time they are whispering doesn't indicate they are whispering. So grey text might work if the body language reinforces that action. Just a thought.

Having the same font size gets kinda boring. So I'd look at any letterer you may be a fan of and see how they add stresses to the dialogue. Mixing it up will go along way of breaking the monotony.

For the dialog balloons themselves, I don't think your squared balloons are "wrong" but they don't feel "right" either. What I mean by that is: Even though you are portraying a futuristic story, or at least a high-tech story, IMO your character's conversations and thusly your characters should always feel organic (unless they are androids, robots, etc). I think the rounded dialog balloons go a long way in make the dialog feel more organic.

 I also think one technical reason the traditional dialog balloons are rounded is to encapsulate the dialog more tightly and efficiently leaving little wasted space. Squared dialog balloons typically waste small amounts of space in every corner. Not a big deal perhaps, but something to be aware of. It's those little details that make good designs into great designs.

In regards to fonts being all caps. Again, I think there is a pretty strong technical reason to go with all caps - the letter forms are more open in caps than in the typical lower case letters. Meaning there is more white space for each letter so you can clearly see what each letter is. When you use lower case letters, I see areas where the letters are blending together. This is more an artifact of screen resolutions, but it's a real visual challenge that should be considered, tweaked and optimized.

To sum up, I gave my opinions because I really like where your style is going and I'm impressed by your improvements. If I didn't care for your 3d style, I just wouldn't voice my opinion here. I think you still have areas of improvement, but I also know you've taken on a big challenge going with 3D stills. If you can get your characters looking more natural and less stiff, I think you'll find more and more readers interested in your stories.

ok, I'm getting off my soapbox now.




Edited by Robert Shepherd on 22 September 2017 at 5:09pm
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