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Don Zomberg
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Joined: 23 November 2005
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| Posted: 17 September 2017 at 7:46am | IP Logged | 1
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Grey lettering for whispering drives me nuts--whose genius idea was it to make comics as hard to read as possible?
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Eric Sofer
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Joined: 31 January 2014
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Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 17 September 2017 at 8:18am | IP Logged | 2
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Don - probably the same brain donor whose idea it was to start putting lettering in standard type, instead of the all-caps that worked so well for sixty-odd years.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 17 September 2017 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 3
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At the time of that little "experiment", Bill Jemas was quoted as saying Marvel was using such fonts because "the New York Times doesn't have all caps." New York Times Also doesn't have comics.
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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 17 September 2017 at 9:06am | IP Logged | 4
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At the time of that little "experiment", Bill Jemas was quoted as saying Marvel was using such fonts because "the New York Times doesn't have all caps."
***
I'm no good at analogies, but wouldn't that be akin to someone saying, "We're using these ingredients in cream cakes because someone else uses the same ingredients in chicken casserole." :/
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Drew Spence
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Joined: 19 February 2014
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Posts: 225
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| Posted: 17 September 2017 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 5
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I think the New York Times is cited as a place for the standard of writing. Not quality of the journalism (per se) but the rules of writing. Most use their rules when it comes to proper notation and grammar- like how to list songs and movies and such. He was probably trying to get in line behind EVERYTHING they did and leaned beyond the context.
I think I read somewhere that humans read a mix of upper case and lower case better than all upper case. And all upper case was done for the letter and their deadlines and NOT for legibility in regard of the reader.
The human eye can easily discern close to a 100 millions shades.
If anything other than Stark black makes text unreadable for you, you have a bigger problem than a creative letterer.
I think everyone is imagining some extreme scenario. Like some faint grey that's barely on the page. You can distinguish a lighter black.. And if you can't, you'd default to full black and miss the nuance and be just fine.
Also, comics train the reader and scene by scene they build a key or guide. NO ONE intuitively gets over half the lettering conventions in comics. You learn what they are as you read and there are widely accepted practices.
What we do- is come into writing with an established set of common sense approaches. These aren't born from comics. Bold is to go over a line again and again so it's thicker. Boldface in text is that.
If we all understand that - and also something BIGGER is louder.
Caps seem bigger. If you accept that as a writing baseline then the opposite effect is also just as easy to understand.
Things like marching ants to denote a whisper is NOT intuitive.
And it almost makes no sense, but due to the limitations of the medium, it's the way to go and if your audience has read enough comics, they get it.
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 17 September 2017 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 6
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I think the New York Times is cited as a place for the standard of writing. Not quality of the journalism (per se) but the rules of writing. Most use their rules when it comes to proper notation and grammar- like how to list songs and movies and such. He was probably trying to get in line behind EVERYTHING they did and leaned beyond the context.•• Read what I wrote a little more carefully. The reference was to mixed case lettering, not journalistic prowess.
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Drew Spence
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 225
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| Posted: 17 September 2017 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 7
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Yes, I know what you meant. I was clarifying MY statement as far as writing standards go-
"I think the New York Times is cited as a place for the standard of writing."
That reads like Marvel was trying to write like the New York Times as opposed to following their ...notation guides...
What's funny is - I was trying to make my first sentence clearer by saying that.
I even have one of their books here...somewhere...
And again, it's used as a reference...on how to cite things and general.....
ahh you know what I mean. lol
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Drew Spence
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| Posted: 22 September 2017 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 8
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You can see what I was talking about on page 6, the grey speech balloon is a whispered conversation.
I almost wish I made it lighter.
And later on, I purposely distort the text to - do that- make it harder to read, just like a line in the movie which isn't quite clear.
Page 12 also has Jackie with her hand to her mouth as she whispers or says in a low tone "It's how you worded the.."
I'm also lowering the opacity of the balloons.
Season II Opener: Force Six, The Annihilators Building Blocks Storm Front
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 22 September 2017 at 10:12am | IP Logged | 9
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Ever since hand lettering began to be replaced by computers, we have seen an unfortunate swing towards technicians replacing artists. People who are WAY too impressed with the toys, and who use them often to the detriment of the art.Back in the day, when various fanzines and other sources would award Best (or Favorite) Writer, Artist, Colorist, Letterer etc awards, I would often point out that if the colorist and letterer get themselves noticed, they have not done their job properly. As important as these jobs are -- and they are VERY important -- they should be "invisible". Coloring and lettering that calls attention to itself is a bad thing. Letterers who use computers to show how clever they are -- Look! Different fonts for different characters! Look! Different shaped balloons with different colors and different opacities! -- work AGAINST the overall effect of the page. If the reader pauses, even if only for a moment, to think Cool lettering!, then they have been pulled out of the story.
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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 22 September 2017 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 10
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Back in the day, when various fanzines and other sources would award Best (or Favorite) Writer, Artist, Colorist, Letterer etc awards, I would often point out that if the colorist and letterer get themselves noticed, they have not done their job properly. As important as these jobs are -- and they are VERY important -- they should be "invisible". Coloring and lettering that calls attention to itself is a bad thing.
***
I couldn't agree more.
I felt the same way when I picked up a comic years ago - and the inside back cover was an awards form where people (US citizens only) could vote for those categories.
They should be "invisible". If I, or anyone else for that matter, takes 60 minutes to read a 30-minute comic, because I'm stopping to look at word balloons and colours, well I've failed as a reader, too.
It's an imperfect analogy, but if I get distracted during a film, because I'm appreciating the CGI techniques which have given me an ape or reptile, well I feel those things should be "invisible", too.
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Drew Spence
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| Posted: 22 September 2017 at 11:05am | IP Logged | 11
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I think the text and technique need to match.If your style is jagged hand drawn lines, then the hand drawn text should follow. I think the precise lines or digital line work- show a very precise amount of control and that's when computer fonts make sense. The overall look is consistent.
In traditional comics, the art is or was done with a VERY human stylus. So, long as the text and balloons were made from the same 'material' - you have consistency. One of the problems with 3D art is the images are ...graphic rendered and the text/bubbles look hand drawn.
That pulls me out and I see inconsistency.
Lots of gradients and tones in the art, but a stark white balloon.
It sits ON TOP of the art.
This is tough to explain. But let me try.
Characters and the art had a bold outline around everything.You DREW a person and then colored in the person.
My 3D art does not have a thick black outline around everything so why or better, how could word balloons match? They don't. So, I want my text balloons to be consistent with my art which is to blend them in with the scenes. I do not want my balloons to float above my images. I want the balloons to SIT inside of the artwork..And occupy the same level of depth.
I think saying that attention of really "overdoing" an aspect of a comic is weird. That's like saying "Batman's cape is flowing so full and detailed that I stopped reading the comic to admire how cool his cape looks" and that's somehow a problem.
I say no. And respectfully disagree. I can accept a pause to admire the scenery before I dive back into the story. I actually want readers to pause and look at a scene and say "Dang, that looks crazy". When I read comics I do that. And no offense John, but I stop and marvel (no pun) at your illustrations [Star Trek and the older stuff] - I like being wowed by some of the stuff you pull off. I like guessing where you got your images from and see how you manipulated them. I should be able to enjoy the visual feast too.
As far as CGI goes, it either convinces you it's real or it doesn't.
If you notice CGI, that means you realize it's a 'digital effect' and NOT real. That's the issue. My text isn't supposed to fool you into thinking I did it by hand. It's hand-like-done, because humans are speaking and human speech looks a lot like human text. lol
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15816
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| Posted: 22 September 2017 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 12
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Why do you make the balloons so square, Drew?
I agree with JB in terms of distractions: I want to be immersed in a story, no matter the medium. In a movie, a technically brilliant shot may help draw you into the story, but if you start noticing how difficult it must have been to put that shot together, it is a failure on behalf of the filmmaker (I'm talking about the first time you see the film; going back and analysing a shot on repeated viewings is a different matter).
With a comic, you want the barriers between the story and the reader to be as light as possible, which means NOT noticing the lettering on a conscious level. You want those words zapping directly into the reader's mind.
As for 'marching ants'.... No comic has ever had marching ants, unless it's some kind of online animated hybrid that I have not seen. Applying a specific photoshop term to a pre-existing and similar-but-different lettering effect seems weird and inaccurate.
Edited by Peter Martin on 22 September 2017 at 11:45am
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