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Peter Martin
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Posted: 04 December 2020 at 10:00am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

To quote the Supreme Court ruling from Burdick vs United States (1915): "This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial. The latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it."

Putting this aside, for someone like Trump, who always looks to exploit whatever flaws or loopholes exist in a law, it's a no-brainer that he would take the option of the frankly crazy rule that the President has the power to pardon any federal crimes without any constraint barring in cases of impeachment.

It's like taking out an insurance policy without any cost excepting you might look like you have something to hide and therefore lose the moral high ground... which Trump never held in the first place.

Trump has already made it clear in the cases of Flynn and Roger Stone that as far as he is concerned, the law does not apply equally to all men.

The US constitution specifies almost no limits on the President's powers of clemency; there has been, heretofore, an unwritten rule that the man in charge will use his powers responsibly and wisely. Then Trump took office.

I would contend that some thought needs to go into whether the executive powers of clemency need to be reeled in.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 04 December 2020 at 10:10am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Let's go to the follow-up question... can a president rescind a pardon that a prior president has issued? I tried to find an answer, but only got a lot of opinions - nothing legally referenced.
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 04 December 2020 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I don't believe they can.

But I find it unbelievable that a President could even have the ability to pardon hinself. I also find it unbelievable that it takes many more votes to remove a Supreme Court Justice from the bench than it does to appoint/confirm one.
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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 04 December 2020 at 11:22am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Brian,

Believe it.  It takes a simple majority vote of the 100 member US Senate to confirm a Supreme Court justice - it would take a 2/3 vote of that same body to remove one (i.e. conviction in a court of impeachment).

Also, re: presidential pardons - when Nixon was contemplating pardoning himself (and it's a little known fact that he was) - the US Department of Justice issued a non-binding legal opinion that it would be unconstitutional for a president to do so; apparently this was enough to scare Nixon away from trying.  

For the purposes of discussing the repercussions of pardons, Peter brings up the important Supreme Court case of Burdick v United States - I have to remind everyone, including myself, that what we are contending with TODAY is a TOTALLY different US Supreme Court.  In addition to Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito (two VERY far right judges) - you now have no less than three Trump appointed justices: Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Barrett.  If I still remember my Kindergarten math, that makes 5 out of 9 - a majority.

As Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes said: "the Constitution is what the judges say it is."  

Marc

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 04 December 2020 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I think Ford pardoning Nixon against future prosecutions set a ridiculous precedent. He did it for reasons of expedience -- he had pressing problems that needed addressing, but knew his time would be instead spent constantly discussing Nixon, so shoved the Nixon issue out of frame by issuing the pardon. The tacit understanding was that: a successful prosecution was inevitably coming and that when it did, Ford would pardon him. The in-advance pardon forestalled the circus, whilst implying an admission of guilt by Nixon in accepting the pardon, which was seen as politically acceptable at the time. The trouble is we are left with this nonsense of a precedent set of being able to pardon against future convictions.

If Trump does try it, I hope any valid prosecutions proceed anyway, so that where (if) there is genuine guilt, it is firmly established.


Edited by Peter Martin on 04 December 2020 at 11:53am
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Neil Lindholm
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Posted: 04 December 2020 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Isn’t there nothing in the Constitution stopping the Democrats from hiring new judges? Isn’t the current number of 9 just tradition over constitutional limits in size? 

On the same note, is the lifetime sitting of the judges in the constitution mandatory or again just convention? Getting rid of the lifetime appointments would solve lots of your problems. 
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 04 December 2020 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

The lifetime appointment is in the constitution.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 04 December 2020 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

On the same note, is the lifetime sitting of the judges in the constitution mandatory or again just convention?
--------------------------------
The wording of the Constitution says they shall hold their offices during good behaviour. In other words, there is no term limit -- it's as long as they want to keep doing it, so long as they haven't been naughty enough for congress to remove them.

In terms of numbers on the Supreme Court, the constitution doesn't say anything about how it should be organised... It's basically left up to Congress.

So the number is determined by whatever the Judiciary Act says. That has been changed a number of times between the first Judiciary Act in 1789 and the last time it was amended, which was 1869 . It was originally 6, but has been as low as 5, as high as 10 and the current 9 was set in the Judiciary Act of 1869.

So in theory there is nothing to preclude Congress amending the Judiciary Act to alter that number, but in practice I would think that is unlikely without a very good reason (i.e. something above and beyond the opportune wants of party politics), simply because that law has stood and seemed to work perfectly well for so long.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 04 December 2020 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Still... he could pardon himself, his litter of piglets, several assorted
fecal people, and that would remove the pleasure of seeing them
manacled, arrested, tried, and deported*. And I'm not certain what a
presidential pardon carries with it; I don't know if it works as an
admission of guilt. It's a dirty trick, probably illegal, and the straw that
45 is clinging to to save his sorry ass post-inauguration. But I'll wager
that a number of legal interpreters are looking at it veeeeerrrrrry closely
right now.

********

First, I feel like you aren't listening when it's being said pardoning
himself WILL NOT remove the possibility of him being "manacled,
arrested, tried...". The only thing it would protect him from is any
FEDERAL crimes he's committed. He has no protection from any
STATE crimes he's committed. And it sure looks like the State of New
York is eagerly awaiting 12:00:01 on 1/20/2021. If they bring charges
against him, his self-pardon would mean nothing.

On to your other point on whether it would be an admission of guilt. For
people the president pardons, if they accept the pardon, it's an
understanded admission of guilt. The pardon just gets rid of the
punishment, not the fact the crime was committed. And if the pardon is
accepted, they are admitted they did the crime. They just don't have to
do the time.

The sticky part in this instance is the fact the pardon may come before
any charges are even brought. Is there a crime if no charges have been
brought? How can you admit to a crime if, technically, there has been
no crime? That was one of the big questions surrounding Nixon when
he was floating it around.
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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 12 December 2020 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Lots of talk about succession these days.  


It’s becoming clear that the MAGAts and hard right conservatives are not going to go along to get along anymore.  Every election they lose they will probably react like they are now. 

Would it really be so bad if they went away so Trump could be their leader forever?  What’s the downside?  



Edited by David Allen Perrin on 12 December 2020 at 3:29pm
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 12 December 2020 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

How did autocorrect accept my not-real word “understanded” above?
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 12 December 2020 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Not that secession is a serious or viable option anyway, but the problem is that the divide in our country is an urban/rural one, rather than a geographical one.  Even in a state like Mississippi, Biden received 41% of the vote.  That's a pretty large amount for a "red" state.  Every state has a significant amount of each side.  So it's not like you could just lop off the areas that support Trump and let them form a new CSA.
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