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Robbie Parry
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| Posted: 14 November 2014 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | 1
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SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP was a title which ran for seventeen issues from the mid-70s until early 1980 (there were two Giant-Size versions, too). The first thirteen issues featured Namor and Doctor Doom teaming up; after that, Doom teamed up with Magneto and the Red Skull. If memory serves me right (I read the ESSENTIAL volume once), Hate-Monger and Red Skull teamed up in the final two issues.
The stories were pretty good. I thought the dialogue was excellent and that we really got an insight into Doom and Namor's mindsets, egos, insecurities, etc. It was a good arc and featured many good battles, including one with Doom taking on Krang underwater.
As positive as it was, though, I can't help but feel a bit disappointed by the series and the missed opportunities.
To me, Super-Villain Team-Up would suggest or imply supervillains teaming up, different ones each month. To my young mind, and I was never cynical as a kid, the title wasn't appropriate because a) it's first 13 issues featured the *same* alliance and b) I never thought of Namor as a supervillain. An anti-hero, a nuisance, an antagonistic and complex character, but never a supervillain.
I confess, when I first heard about this title (I would have been too young to read it at the time), I was excited. I expected that, even if one supervillain had a permanent presence in the book, there would be alternating guest stars. So when I bought the ESSENTIAL volume a few years ago - my first experience of the title - I was quite disappointed that it was Namor/Doom for the first thirteen issues.
Whenever I buy an ESSENTIAL or SHOWCASE volume, I rarely flick through it as I like each page to be a total surprise. So when I picked up the SVTU volume, I expected we might see Doom, Octopus, Electro, Mandarin, Magneto, etc. There were some ASTONISHING TALES reprints early on in the volume (which were good), but after the first several tales of Namor/Doom, I did flick through the rest of the book and was disappointed that it was mainly Namor/Doom.
The stories were good. The artwork was good, but perhaps the title should have been called something different (please feel free to disagree). It just proved to be totally anti-climatic.
When I think of what could have been, it's exciting. Doom manipulating the Goblin! Doom and Kingpin! Octopus and Rhino. Mandarin and Leader. Magneto and Mysterio. Or Magneto and the Frightful Four. It does seem limiting, in retrospect, to have made it a Namor/Doom-centric title.
Any thoughts?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 14 November 2014 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 2
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SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP was born during the days of the Writer/Editors, which right away thru a huge stumbling block in its path. Those "in control" of the characters were often unwilling to let them loose for use in other books. Recall, if you can, the story I have told of Chris and me actually having to go to Shooter to borrow Kraven the Hunter from the Spider-Man office. The writer-editor said he had plans for the character -- two years hence!!!SVTU hit the same wall.
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Robbie Parry
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| Posted: 14 November 2014 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | 3
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Thanks for the insight.
The stories were mostly enjoyable, but I can't help imagine the many scenarios. I've always wondered how Doom would handle an unpredictable character like Green Goblin. Or what sort of plots Doom and The Leader or Mandarin and The Leader could cook up.
On an unrelated note, I can't know of every encounter that has ever happened, but instead of the companies rehashing old Crisis or Civil War events, or doing yet another 'origin' story, why not go down some paths? Has Doom ever encountered the Mandarin? Have the X-Men ever battled Doctor Octopus? These are stories I'd pay to read - not another rehash of thirty-year old crossovers.
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Bill Guerra
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| Posted: 14 November 2014 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | 4
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I know Doom encountered the Mandarin during the Acts of Vengeance. They were 2 of the 6 "masterminds" behind everything.
I think you have a point that SVTU was a missed opportunity in rare team-ups we'd probably never see otherwise! I would have liked to see a Dr. Doom/ Green Goblin alliance or (perhaps more likely) antagonistic relationship. I wouldn't think Doom would have much patience in dealing with the Goblin.
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Doug Centers
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| Posted: 14 November 2014 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | 5
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I am inclined to agree that it was a missed opportunity now that I think about it. At the time though I don't remember thinking that.I can faintly remember enjoying the stories as they would sometimes tie in with the Avengers, FF or the Champions.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 14 November 2014 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | 6
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The series title notwithstanding, I think (and thought back then when I was a kid) that it was just an excuse to give Sub-Mariner and Dr. Doom a comic together. SUB-MARINER had been cancelled not too long before that and they had tried to give DR. DOOM his own series (half of ASTONISHING TALES), so I think this was an attempt to give two characters who couldn't quite carry their own book to give them at least half a book--with a single story possibly more interesting than two back-up sized stories in a shared book like the old TALES OF SUSPENSE or TALES TO ASTONISH.
I see it as a precursor of sorts to the later POWERMAN/IRON FIST comic.
I remember feeling disappointed when they switched to the Red Skull and Hate Monger, two characters I never wanted to see in their own features.
But, yes, a different kind of "MARVEL TEAM-UP" featuring only villains sounds like a fun, interesting book, but it seems the days of team-up books are over. Recently, Marvel has given us SAVAGE WOLVERINE, SAVAGE HULK, and AVENGING SPIDER-MAN--all of which were pretty much team-up books that were NOT sold or advertised as team-up books. (Because team-up books aren't cool?)
Edited by Eric Jansen on 15 November 2014 at 2:52am
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 15 November 2014 at 1:23am | IP Logged | 7
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I may be in the minority, but I didn't think SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP was very good at all. Sorry Robbie, but I just never understood the point. I couldn't root for any of the characters because none of the leads could ever get anything approaching a significant win, so even as a kid it was rather confusing. They were teaming up to do what? Lose? It seemed to me a very flawed premise from the start.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 15 November 2014 at 2:50am | IP Logged | 8
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Matt's post bring to mind an interesting side question: Can a super-villain comic work?
I remember liking as a kid DC's THE JOKER and SECRET SOCIETY OF SUPER-VILLAINS back in the 70's, as well as Marvel's SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP, though none of them lasted too long.
THE JOKER had some enjoyable (I recall) one-off stories by personal favorite like Elliot S. Maggin, Irv Novick, and Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez. I remember really liking SSOSV when they quickly brought in CAPT. COMET hunting down the villains (especially when drawn by Rich Buckler--that was a perfect pairing of hero and artist).
It was sort of a trick though to sell a CAPT. COMET comic as a villain comic, but it gave me someone to root for.
And, Matt, couldn't you root for SUB-MARINER in SVTU? Once he (and even Dr. Doom) left though, there wasn't much reason to stick around.
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Jason Czeskleba
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| Posted: 15 November 2014 at 3:40am | IP Logged | 9
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I really enjoyed the final issue of the original run, with Doom versus Magneto. It seems like the plan would have been to turn the book into something more like what Robbie expected, had the series survived.
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Robbie Parry
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| Posted: 15 November 2014 at 6:25am | IP Logged | 10
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I may be in the minority, but I didn't think SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP was
very good at all. Sorry Robbie, but I just never understood the point. I
couldn't root for any of the characters because none of the leads could
ever get anything approaching a significant win, so even as a kid it
was rather confusing. They were teaming up to do what? Lose? It seemed
to me a very flawed premise from the start.
***
That's a good point, Matt.
It's why I can't understand some rumours of supervillains being given their own movies. Sure, they could probably have something even more evil to battle - but if and when they succeed, you're still left with a supervillain!
My ideal team-up book would be two heroes versus two villains in each issue. And nothing predictable (so no Spider-Man and Daredevil battling Kingpin and Jigsaw), but different types of encounters. I don't know, something like Drax the Destroyer and Iron Fist taking on Dormammu and The Abomination.
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Roy Johnson
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| Posted: 15 November 2014 at 6:29am | IP Logged | 11
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Re. SSOSV, bringing in Comet made him kind of the antagonist to the villains.
Maybe villain comic would work if it were like "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead" kind of deal, where we're just seeing the flip side of our regular stories told from the heroes' perspective. Like the B story becomes the A story, which I can't find on TVTropes.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 15 November 2014 at 7:30am | IP Logged | 12
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Maybe villain comic would work if it were like "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead" kind of deal, where we're just seeing the flip side of our regular stories told from the heroes' perspective. Like the B story becomes the A story, which I can't find on TVTropes.•• Mark Gruenwald and I pitched just such a series, many years ago. The editor of the characters whose stories would be "flipped" turned us down flat. Then, a short time later, he left staff for a freelance position, and pitched our idea to the new editor!!
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