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Steve Horton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3574
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 1
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Gregg: There will ALWAYS be people out there that want to harm others, and by allowing them easy access to guns, we are acting as enablers.
I don't know of any prior violent acts by any of the school shooters, including the Amish one. Like many such murder-suicides, that was their first and last. There was no way to know or contain that situation before it happened. By focusing on the guns, we are focusing on eliminating a tool of murder, one that is very good at its job. This is something we CAN control.
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Greg Cordier
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 579
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | 2
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I remember all the talk about getting rid of box cutters after 9/11.
I remember all the talk about getting rid of all the Muslims after 9/11.
I remember the talk about banning alcohol after years of drunk drivers taking peoples lives.
I remember all the talk about getting rid of all the homosexuals after the priests were found to have molested little boys for decades.
Getting rid of guns must be the logical extension of all those arguements where people had extreme reactions to horrible events. Take responsibility off of the indivuals who committed the crimes and focus it on the tools/lifestyles/beliefs/whatever that they used.
You just have to face facts that evil bastards would find a way to be evil bastards even if the only thing they were allowed to have was a pointy stick. Would it be more difficult to have committed those horrible acts to those poor Amish girls without guns? Certainly. With all the planning and hate involved in this crime, it is almost a certainty that he would have used a knife if a gun was not available. It is the person, not the instument that is guilty. I feel as powerless as everyone else in this, but fixing the people in our society would be the best (but more difficult) solution. How do we do it? Beats me.
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Steve Horton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3574
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 5:30pm | IP Logged | 3
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Greg: That's a classic straw man argument. We're not talking about box cutters, or Muslims, or homosexuals. We're talking about guns. Banning guns is not a logical extension of banning gays.
We can't fix the people in our society. It can't be done. People are what they are. We can, however, fix society itself by fixing the gun problem. Take away the tool for mass murder, and society goes a long way toward righting itself in spite of the people in it.
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Brian O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 741
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | 4
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There was apparently no way to 'fix' the Lancaster County shooter, other than psychiatric treatment...but since nobody knew he had a problem, what could have been done?
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35751
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 5
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Without the easy access to the gun(s) he used, would he have been able to commit this horrible crime? I'd say that's something that could be done. Given the choice of a stand-off with a man with a knife and a man with a gun(s), I'd rush the guy with the knife and take my chances over trying to overpower someone with a gun or a rifle any day o' the week.
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Jon Godson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 6
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Given the choice of a stand-off with a man with a knife and a man with a
gun(s), I'd rush the guy with the knife and take my chances over trying to
overpower someone with a gun or a rifle any day o' the week.
*************
Given the choice, I would rather have a gun myself.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35751
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | 7
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Right. So in my scenario, let's arm the girls in that classroom. Mexican standoffs with kids are so "in" these days!
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Gregg Halecki
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005
Posts: 759
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | 8
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Of course we shouldn't arm little kids, however what would be wrong with having armed security guards in schools?
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Gregg Halecki
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 9
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looking at the stats on the last page.....
I am sure that those statistics either:
A) reflect legal, registered guns
or
B) guestimate the numbers on illegal guns, therefore making the numbers invalid
How many of the gun related deaths would have been at least very likely to happen if there were no guns available?
Most of the suicides I am sure. Shooting one's self is not the most common form of suicide any way. A very large ( I would guess close to 2/3 myself) of the murders would have happened. People who want to kill will find a way to do it.
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Jon Godson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 10
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Right. So in my scenario, let's arm the girls in that classroom. Mexican
standoffs with kids are so "in" these days!
****************
Yes. That's EXACTLY what I said, Matt.
So YOU were saying that the girls should have rushed a guy with a knife?
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Hamilton Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 October 2006
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | 11
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Mr. Byrne as you've chosen an argumentative tone, I'm going to respond in kind.
Your ignorance about guns is astounding. I've been reading the
boards for a while and your ad hominem attacks and other logical
fallacies, as well as your complete inability to form a logical
argument on this topic are a disappointment.
Your core assertion seems to be that without guns we'd all be far
safer. If that is your assertion, then you first have to prove it
is true. You can't, of course, as the statistics do not hold that
assertion up. More on this later. Further, your idiotic
notion that since guns are designed to kill and therefore one cannot
compare deaths from other items or practices is gibberish. You
are, in essence contending that a tool designed to be lethal should be
banned, when other tools /not/ designed to be lethal are actually more
lethal and should not be banned makes no sense whatsoever.
You cited Japan. Let me offer a couple of counter-examples:
Sweden and Israel. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of
concealed firearms,
and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical
advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel "have rates of
homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are
at least as high as those in the United States." A comparison of crime
rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and
crime. Cite for this one:
http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-13-00.html
On your views of the 2nd Amendment, again, you're flat wrong. The
Founders all meant for the Amendment to be a protection of an
individual right. Hell, they believed that if you could afford it
you could own naval cannons, far more destructive than anything short
of a tank when it comes to modern firearms.
Your notion that advocating gun ownership is the same as advocatng the
murder of children is so clearly an ad hominem attack with no rational
basis that it would get you booted out of any high school debating
competition.
Your claim about being more likely to be killed if you own a handgun is
from the a study by the aforementioned Dr. Kellerman. That study
is taught in college statistics and research classes. As a prime
example of how not to do a study. His sample size was too
small. There were at least seven other factors for which he did
not control that would explain the higher death rate among his
subjects, such as criminal involvement, drug use, or a history of
depression.
As for gun control working in Britian. Wrong. Crime is on
the rise, and criminals now have than 3m firearms illegally in
circulation, double the number 10 years ago.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,38662 2,00.html
The fact is, studies show that gun control laws do not lower violent
crime rates. Further, they show that states which have concealed
carry laws experience a drop in crime. And that a gun is twice as
likely to be used in self-defense as it is to be used in the commission
of a crime. To continue to hammer on the topic, criminals
continue to have access to guns even with strict gun control laws in
place. source:
http://realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-10_19_0 5_JS.html The long
and the short is that a total gun ban would not stop criminals from
owning firearms, and that for every one life saved, two more would be
lost to those criminals, ultimately resulting in less safety, not more.
The loss of those little girls in PA was horrific and tragic. But
banning guns would not have stopped it. Even if the man who
commited the crime failed to obtain one illegaly, when you have a
roomful of pregnant women and children even a knife would have been
sufficient for his purpose.
What is fucked in the head is the cowardly insistence that a tragedy
more rare than a lightning strike is sufficient justification for
rendering the rest of society helpless before criminals or
tyrants.
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Steve Horton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3574
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| Posted: 04 October 2006 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | 12
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I wish we had more people joining with "Hello everyone! I'm new here. How's it going?" instead of jumping straight to combative.
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