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Topic: Why "your old stuff was better..." (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Erik Larsen
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 1  

...And before anybody says anything--this is not aimed at any one
specific artist but rather many of them to some degree.

We've all heard it before--and many have said it about an artist at one
time or another.

"Your old stuff was better."

And most artists who hear that can only cringe and say to themselves,
"really? Do you really prefer my work when I didn't know what I was
doing? When everything was crude and clumsy and awkward? You really
prefer THAT to THIS?"

And the answer is--yeah, kind of.

And it's not just a matter of the fan having been 10 or 12 or whatever.
There's a crude energy in many artists' early work that is lacking in later
work. What's interesting about it is that the work is often unpredictable
because the artist is figuring things out. An artist may struggle with a
hand, for example, and pull off something weird and strange yet beautiful
but hopelessly flawed. The artist may learn from that experience and
never do anything like it. the artist sees it as a failed experiment. The fan
sees it as interesting and unusual.

Years into it--the artist may have figured everything out. This is how he
draws a hand--this is the way he draws an explosion--this is a running
pose--a punching pose--and it may be very competent but to the
reader--it's lifeless and dull. They've seen it all before. They're familiar
with the artist's bag of tricks. It all looks the same.

To the artist-- it's baffling. It's maddening. Here they are--at the peak of
their powers--their work has fewer flaws than ever before--they're
figured everything out--worked out all the kinks. The anatomy is
stronger, the perspective is right on, the storytelling is clear, the
proportions are perfect and yet--fans aren't as enthusiastic as they once
were.

Neal Adams once said (or it's been attributed to Neal) that, "Your style is
everything you do wrong." If that is the case then an artist may have more
"style" as a rookie than as a seasoned vet. I can remember being
fascinated by certain aspects of artist's work which they ultimately refined
and lost from their styles. One artist may have given characters unusually
long heads or unusually large feet or hands. Years later those flaws were
gone, along with my interest in their work.

The thing is--if there's no change--fans grow bored as well. Familiarity
breeds contempt. Those aspects that made you love an artist when you
were 12 may make you loathe their work at 32. Which leads to a real
damned if you do--damned if you don't scenario. If you do
improve-- you may lose the fans who loved you for what you were--if
you don't improve they may grow bored with you and ridicule you
for your faults and how you've stagnated.

I don't know if there is a solution.

I do know that I've come to embrace my own awkwardness and try not to
erase and over think what I do. I try not to get in a rut--I strive to find
new approaches and challenge myself and struggle to find ways of making
things new. But it's not always easy. My hand has a tendency to default to
familiar solutions to drawing challenges--to resort to stock hands or
poses or faces. As difficult as it was to lay out those early pages--it can
be as difficult or more to find new ways of laying out a page--to avoid
the rut and try something new--especially with deadlines looming.

The thing is--I can look at any number of artists' work and see the
progression and even though I know that later work is superior of a
technical level--there's something very visceral, raw and exciting about
those artists' earlier work. It's often crude and ugly--but there's an
energy there which often gets lost.

In any case-- I thought I'd share and see what your thoughts might be.
No need to cite specifics if you're not inclined to offend anybody. And,
again, this is not directed at any one individual.
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Trevor Giberson
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | 2  

I agree with a lot of what you've said here.  Jim Aparo, Curt Swan - their stuff when they were younger was so great in my eyes.  Later on, it became kind of matter-of-fact - still great, but 'been there, done that'.  John Buscema to an extent too (but if you asked who I'd like to draw like, I'd say John Buscema and Jim Aparo...)

BTW, with you, I like you later stuff.  I haven't seen an issue of Savage Dragon in a long time, but I liked your early attempts at lettering, and the kinda ink-blot inking you developed as Savage Dragon past 100.

With John Byrne... I dunno.  My favorite stuff is always going to be the stuff I read as an early teen, and I his style shift around Alpha Flight 13 made me think "why would you change that???".  But when I came back to comics around 2002, the Byrne that was around was so great compared to not only his late 80s self, but those artists around him.  I just love the guy's stuff... the Doom Patrol, JLA and Demon pencil scans section of this website is more interesting to me than any comic on the market right now.  (I actually wish someone else was inking the IDW stuff so I could have more pencil scans to study...)


Edited by Trevor Giberson on 10 July 2009 at 7:17pm
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Steve D Swanson
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | 3  

I can see what you're saying, Erik, and I agree with it to a certain extent: When you're raw, making mistakes, making compromises, finding innovative ways of doing something because you don't know the right way, that can add a level of energy to the art itself. And the energy is what draws someone to a piece of art, the visceral reaction to the piece.

The component I think you haven't explored in your post is that it is also 'When' a new reader finds an artist that leads them to love that artist. There have been artists that struggled for years to get in the door, getting small jobs here and there but nothing major, until finally they hit it big (Bryan Hitch comes to mind). And that becomes the standard that people mean when they say; "Your old stuff is better". When THEY first discovered that artist. When THEY were first exposed to his or her work. That becomes the defacto 'best' period. And those artists are fully formed, they've done enough work that they're no longer making mistakes and figuring it out on the fly; they already have a broad base of knowledge.

Familiarity breeds contempt? Someone who's been working for years and who you've followed for years, might be someone whose ticks you can't HELP but see.

People have long said the same thing about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Holmes work, essentially that the work before Holmes died was much better than the work after. But there was a hell of a lot of great stories upon his return and when I read the complete stories in one go I was unaware of the fact that the death was meant to be for real. I had no affinity for either the earlier or later works, because I did not know that there was a clear point of dilineation between the two. Perhaps Doyle's heart had gone out of it, but as a reader completely new to it (and maybe ten years old) I could not detect that change.

The ultimate experiment I suppose would be to take the new art, time travel back and show the new to the same audience that is about to exposed to the old art for the first time and then see what that audience prefers. I don't think it'll be a clear cut win for either, but I have a feeling those fans would still get their 'Wow' moment from seeing that artist's work for the first time.

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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:21pm | IP Logged | 4  

I guess it all depends upon the person, The reader I mean. What and who they were at that point in time when they discovered the artist.
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Erik Larsen
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | 5  

L. Frank Baum is another example of that--in his sixth Oz book he tried to
leave it behind--he ended the series and moved Dorothy and her aunt and
uncle to Oz and cut them off from the rest of the world. Baum went on and
wrote other, less successful books. Eventually he caved into pressure and
returned to writing Oz books, several of which were pretty much by-the-
numbers.
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Robbie Patterson
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | 6  

Without getting nasty, I can think of 1 specific artist whose work had that early energy you mention, which at the time compensated for his terrible anatomy & teeny weeny famine style ankles & bizarre proportions.

In the case of the artist I speak of, not only did his style not really blossom or get refined into something better, but he actually got FAMOUS in spite of & from pushing those flaws.

I bring this up because I agree Erik, I think there is something raw and exciting about artists' early work, but their standing as an artist as a whole for me anyway is or should be based more on that evolution. Look at what Stan & Jack were doing by the time they'd got to FF#50 compared to FF#1.. Whereas folks like the artist I mention above might have had a major following when their art was "trendy", but in 20 years time no one is going to want to look at that work in the way they will that of a Jack Kirby or a Neal Adams, in my opinion.


Edited by Robbie Patterson on 10 July 2009 at 7:25pm
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Trevor Giberson
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 7  

Anthony:  Sometimes, but in Jim Aparo's case I loved him before I saw those blow away Specter, Aquaman and Brave & The Bold issue.  Fargin' awesome they were...

Then there are guys like Gil Kane and Joe Kubert who got better every time their pencil hit paper... mutants, if you ask me.
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Robbie Patterson
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | 8  

I might be wrong in my predictions up above though - I guess you could sort of liken roy lichtenstein to having had the opposite effect.

Was his original stuff good? Not really, in my opinion. But then he latched onto a style/gimmick & for years & years just churned those things out. & people swallowed it hook line & sinker!

& there are no doubt many people today who still think that stuff is great & would list him in any "great artists" lists.

One hopes that popularity or mainstream recognition doesn't see certain comic book artists listed alongside Kirby in the same way that lichtenstein is often bracketed in with warhol or gilbert & george!!!


Edited by Robbie Patterson on 10 July 2009 at 7:33pm
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Scott O'Malley
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 9  

I have to be honest.... most of the artists I like, I seem to like their "old stuff" better.... granted, I am not looking from a technical aspect or anything, so much of it is probably nostalgia.

JB's FF and X-men looks "better" than the Atom and Demon to me.

Savage Dragon #1-50 look infinitely better than #100-150 to me.

The same is true (TO ME) of the other artists I grew up with: Jurgens, Grummett, Perez, etc.

From a technical/competency standpoint, I am sure the newer stuff is more proficient, but I guess I can't help but look at the art from the perspective of my 14 year old eyes!

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Erik Larsen
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 10  

Gil Kane and Joe Kubert are pretty incredible. The quality of their work is unparalleled--but with both--in later years there's a familiarity--I don't
find myself saying, "I've never seen him do THAT before." And that can lead
to people taking them for granted. There's that "seen it" quality in regard to
their work, which I spoke of. But both--I can't get enough of.

Jack Kirby too. I find something on interest in everything he ever did. The
last few jobs where his ability was clearly failing him--I find a bit sad--like
his work on Super Powers where things were really distorted and eyes
weren't lined up--but I love it all.
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Scott O'Malley
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | 11  

although, honeslty, I think the art of Savage Dragon became sketchy, undetailed and a bit half-assed about 9 years ago.... probably coinciding with DC/Marvel projects and the stint as publisher.

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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 10 July 2009 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | 12  

Art is essentially an act of communication. It's not a big mystery why an immature artist is better understood by an immature audience. When you were a kid, did you correct other kids' slang or criticize their lack of thought or insight?

Grow up, guys. Bad art is bad art.
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