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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2175
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 3:30am | IP Logged | 1
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JB>>Again, God = perfect. God’s Plan = perfect. Anything we do = part of Plan.<<
Devout Catholic that he was, JRR Tolkien struggled with this in his legendarium to the day he died. It's easy to say the chaos of Morgoth helped create wonders like mountains and clouds, it's a lot harder to swallow when massive amounts of people are suffering.
It's like when something horrible happens and people wail, "why did this happen?" As if there would be some answer that would soothe you and make you say, "Ah! I get it. Carry on!"
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35734
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 5:53am | IP Logged | 2
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John Wickett wrote:
| …he allows imperfect beings (us) to exercise free will |
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He doesn’t. He and his followers say he does, but that’s not true. Everyone knows it. If you don’t follow his rules, his way, you’re doomed to eternal damnation. That’s not free will. There’s no choice there. There is no freedom. It’s one way or hell. No in between.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35734
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 5:58am | IP Logged | 3
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Byron Graham wrote:
| Their assumption is that I started out as a believer. I never did believe. But lately, when they ask why I'm an atheist, I say "This is the way God made me." |
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Fantastic!
Me? I was born and raised into Christianity. I’ve spoken here at length that I’m a PK (preacher’s kid). I came to atheism late, roughly 20 years ago, but also having been born and raised in a literal cult. I know it from the inside out.
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Doug Centers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 February 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 5473
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 4
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"Their assumption is that I started out as a believer. I never did believe."
...
Never? Were your parents or caregivers atheists? I grew up with it being force fed to me, there was no other way. Not until my early teens do I remember questioning the veracity of the outlandish stories of the Bible. Still, I wouldn't say I was an atheist out loud to close friends until my mid 20's. Now, no qualms letting people know if asked my opinion.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132295
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 5
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If you don’t follow his rules, his way, you’re doomed to eternal damnation. ••• In the Old Testament, via the First Commandment, God tells us we must have no other gods before him.* In the New Testament, Jesus tells us that it is he who is the one path to Salvation. I’ve long been convinced it was this dichotomy that prompted early Christians to invent the Trinity. Despite page after page of Jesus being described as God’s SON, dividing the divinity into three parts allows believers to obey Jesus without violating their number one rule. _______ *I have seen believers claiming “before” in this instance means “in front of”. Okay to worship those other gods as long as you do it where God can’t see. Which would be where?
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12441
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 6
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The Jewish God commanding the Jews to accept him has nothing to do with anybody else. Nobody non-Jewish is going to hell for not accepting him. Even a God-rejecting Jew isn't. There is no Jewish hell.
But eternal damnation seemed necessary to Christians when non-Jews took the Jewish God, made him their own (in three "persons"?!), and then turned around and said, by the way, Jews, if you don't accept our new non-Jewish version of "your" God... off to hell...!
At the same time, even Christians didn't and still don't agree on what that new non-Jewish God is, so for thousands of years they've been condemning each other to hell too.
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Mike Benson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 January 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 813
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 7
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When you have to put this much effort into trying to make sense of it, it isn’t true.
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Byron Graham
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 927
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | 8
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Doug Centers wrote:
| Never? Were your parents or caregivers atheists? |
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Yes, never.
Mom claimed to believe in God, but we never attended church nor did I ever see her read the Bible or recite prayer. So, a believer in name only.
Dad never talked about religion.
I refused to say "under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in grade school. Sure, I hedged my bets early on and claimed to be "spiritual but not religious" but if you had asked me about my spirituality I would've made up something. That eventually gave way to agnostic.
My daughter was born with a birth defect (esophageal atresia with tracheoesophageal fistula). The amount of people who told me that God gave me a special child was maddening. I wondered what kind of God allows a child to be born that way. I told people that my daughter was missing parts (her esophagus) and that if she were a refrigerator I'd take her back for a refund. It was at this point I embraced the label atheist.
My daughter will turn 22 this year, thanks to science and medicine.
Edited by Byron Graham on 24 March 2024 at 4:54pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132295
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 9
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As most of you know, my father was a Buddhist, something he picked up in India and Burma during WW2. This did not mean I was raised in a religious household, however. Taking a cue from his own father, Dad let me find my own path. (His brother had been staunchly Church of England.)I dipped a toe into Buddhism, and for many years considered myself agnostic, but eventually I got to a point where I could not buy into any organization religion (no invisible man in the sky, thank you) and from that point my spiritual side withered away. (Curiously enough I clung to many supernatural notions—ghosts, Bermuda Triangle, etc—until well past College, but those eventually slipped away.) Leaving me as I am now, a man with no invisible means of support.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132295
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 5:06pm | IP Logged | 10
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When you have to put this much effort into trying to make sense of it, it isn’t true.••• To borrow from Christopher Hitchens, anything that can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
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Steve Coates
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 November 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 750
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | 11
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Haha, haha, haha, ... no invisible means of support" , haha.
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James Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 2061
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| Posted: 24 March 2024 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 12
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.......a man with no invisible means of support.......
I'm going to steal this......
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