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Topic: Famous Folk talk Shakespeare Authorship (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | 1  

SB: Hall and perhaps Marston seem to have genuinely believed that Shakespeare was not the author of Venus & Adonis. I'm not disputing this.

Also SB: What published works declaring that Shakespeare is a pen name are you referring to? Are you able to provide an actual quote from Hall or Marston that directly says that the plays or poems attributed to Shakespeare weren't by him?

And I mean an actual quote from Hall and Marston - not ambiguous remarks and unproven speculation about them.

**

Which of these two opposite positions are you taking?
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 2  

This is copied from page 2 of this thread:


 QUOTE:
Mark Haslett wrote: Any Stratfordian has to answer for Joseph Hall who, in his satires of 1595, declares the author of Venus & Adonis is a “cuttlefish” hidden is his own “inky vomiture” who “shifts his fame onto another’s name.”

SB replied: Easily done. Hall didn't believe that Venus & Adonis had been written by William Shakespeare. This isn't proof. It's supposition.

Hall had published in early 1598:

Labeo is whip't, and laughs mee in the face:
Why? for I smite and hide the galled place.
Gird but the Cynicks Helmet on his head,
Cares hee for Talus, or his flayle of lead?
Long as the craftie Cuttle lieth sure
In the blacke Cloude of his thicke vomiture;
Who list complaine of wronged faith or fame
When hee may shift it to anothers name?

The earliest surviving title page naming Shakespeare (Shake-speare, just to be accurate) was the quarto of RICHARD II from 1598. Every surviving quarto before that was anonymous. Only "Venus and Adonis" and "The Rape of Lucrece," by the time of Hall's satire, had been printed with Shakespeare as the author. It would make sense then that Marston would identify Labeo as Shakespeare by reference to one of the only two works in print noting the person who actually was published as the author of these poems. And it wouldn't make sense that Marston would out Shakespeare as the non-author of plays as yet not published in Shakespeare's name.

But does that mean either Hall or Marston denied Shakespeare authorship of only "Venus and Adonis"? Of only the two poems in print at that time attributed to Shakespeare? Of more? Why not more? What in Hall's broad satire suggests that Shakespeare's authorship of "Venus and Adonis" is singularly denied?


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Steven Brake
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | 3  

@Mark: I'm taking a new one. :)

Perhaps somewhat carelessly on my part, I took your assertion that Hall doubted Shakespeare's authorship of Venus & Adonis, and that Marston repeated these doubts, at face value.

More fool me. :)

In 1597, Joseph Hall wrote, or published, the first edition of Virgidemiarum, claiming to be the first English satirist.

In 1598, Marston wrote, or published, The Metamorphosis of Pigmalion's Image and Certaine Satyres, heavily influenced by Ovid, and also Juvenal. 

There is a poem - I think it's the postscript - which has the lines:

"So Labeo did complain his love was stone,
Obdurate, flinty, so relentless none".

In the same year, Marston also wrote, or published, The Scourge Of Villanie, in which he attacked Hall, apparently angered by the claim he'd made in Virgidemiarum of being the first English satirist.

Both The Metamorphosis of Pigmalion's Image and Certaine Satyres and The Scourge Of Villanie were published under the pseudonym W Kinsayder.

In 1598, Hall released a further edition of Virgidemiarum, with a further edition then following in 1599: Virgidemiarum - The three last bookes. Of byting Satyres.

I believe it's in these last that Hall makes his jibe about ""For shame write better Labeo, or write none/Or better write, or Labeo write alone".

So Hall's jibe about fake names is nothing to do with Shakespeare but about Marston/Kinsayer, and the poem being criticised isn't Venus and Adonis, but The Metamorphosis of Pigmalion's Image and Certaine Satyres.

So the "evidence" of contemporary doubts about Shakespeare's authorship  - isn't.

You claimed you had more - do you?


Edited by Steven Brake on 21 June 2024 at 4:38pm
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 4  

Michael: What in Hall's broad satire suggests that Shakespeare's authorship of "Venus and Adonis" is singularly denied?

**

Hall references both Venus & Adonis and Lucrece in his attack on Labeo.

During that time of censorship, punishable by death, Hall wrote his attack in a way that needs the reader to piece together his clues to decode who in reality is being attacked under the nick-name "Labeo." It cannot be overstated how common this method was at the time.

To help his readers Hall identifies his purpose: to call out another poet for criticism. He says Labeo will not admit that Hall’s criticisms hurt him because Labeo writes under a pseudonym. Then he identifies 7 specific qualities of Labeo’s work with which his readers can decode Labeo’s identity:

1.     Heroic poesy
2.     Big But Ohs
3.     Hyphenated epithets
4.     The poet implores Phoebus/Apollo to guide his work
5.     The poet steals “whole pages” from Petrarch
6.     The poems are sexual in nature
7.     The poems are well known

These qualities all match Shakespeare's work perfectly. They are both heroic poems, they start dozens and dozens of stanzas with "But..." and "Oh...", they are noted for their unusual number of high-pitched, lust-breathed hyphenated adjectives, they start with appeals to Apollo, Lucrece steals entire scenes from Petrarch's "Canzone delle Metamorphosi", both poems are extremely sexy and extremely well-known-- with Venus & Adonis being one of the best-selling works of the entire age, hitting record numbers of reprints in record time.


This work was from 1597. In 1598, it responded to by John Marston. In 1598. Marston refers to Labeo with a direct quote from Shakespeare's "Venus & Adonis".

This confirms that Labeo is the author of Venus & Adonis.

So here, in plain print and using a direct quote, is a contemporary of Shakespeare's named Joseph Hall declaring in print that the author of Venus & Adonis uses a pen name:

Labeo is whip't, and laughs mee in the face:
Why? for I smite and hide the galled place.
Gird but the Cynicks Helmet on his head,
Cares hee for Talus, or his flayle of lead?
Long as the craftie Cuttle lieth sure
In the blacke Cloude of his thicke vomiture;
Who list complaine of wronged faith or fame
When hee may shift it to anothers name?

Hall goes on to describe his target as highly placed and towering over him in power. Hall says that if he is not punished for what he writes about Labeo, then he will feel insulted, as if Labeo doesn't consider him a good poet.

In 1599, Joesph Hall's work (and Marston's response) was banned by the Bishop.

This stuff happened. It is evidence to account for in any argument about what the record tells us about the author Shakespeare during the lifetime of Stratford Will:

Men risked punishment to print accusations that the author of Venus & Adonis used a pen name.

But no men, women or children anywhere under any circumstance wrote a word about Stratford Will being a writer of any kind until long after he died.

Seems pretty straight-forward.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 5  

SB: @Mark: I'm taking a new one. :)

**

This is highly damaging to our conversation.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | 6  

SB: There is a poem - I think it's the postscript - which has the lines:

"So Labeo did complain his love was stone,
Obdurate, flinty, so relentless none".

**

Sorry, your "scholarship" is failing you again -- it is not a postscript.

It is the concluding couplet of a section in Marston's attack/rebuttal to Joseph Hall called "The Author in praise of his precedent Poem."

The poem he is defending is his "The Metamorphosis of Pigmalion's Image" -- which is, itself, a lampoon of Shakespeare. So that direct quote from Shakespeare is very well-established as actually being a reference to the author of Venus & Adonis, i.e. "Labeo = Shakespeare".
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 7  

Mark Haslett wrote: To help his readers Hall identifies his purpose: to call out another poet for criticism. He says Labeo will not admit that Hall’s criticisms hurt him because Labeo writes under a pseudonym.

SB replied: Yes, Hall attacked Marston, who published under the pseudonym W Kinsayder.

Mark Haslett wrote: So here, in plain print and using a direct quote, is a contemporary of Shakespeare's named Joseph Hall declaring in print that the author of Venus & Adonis uses a pen name.

SB replied: No, Hall is declaring that Marston used a pseudonym.

Mark Haslett wrote: But no men, women or children anywhere under any circumstance wrote a word about Stratford Will being a writer of any kind until long after he died.

SB replied: In 1598, Francis Mere's Palladis Tamia (1598) praised Shakespeare as a writer, while The Parnassus Plays of around 1599-1601 mocked his pretensions of being one.

In 1605, William Camden described Shakespeare as "most pregnant witts of these ages our times, whom succeeding ages may justly admire".

In 1607, Sir George Buc, Master of the Revels, positively identified Shakespeare as the author of King Lear.

And let's not forget the royal patent of 1603 naming Shakespeare, alongside Burbage, Heminges and Condell as being part of The King's Men, and Heminges and Condell in 1623 affirming that he was the author of the plays in the First Folio.

Mark Haslett wrote: Seems pretty straight-forward.

SB replied: Indeed. I don't know why anyone would have any reasonable grounds for doubting Shakespeare's authorship.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 8  

SB: Both The Metamorphosis of Pigmalion's Image and Certaine Satyres and The Scourge Of Villanie were published under the pseudonym W Kinsayder.

In 1598, Hall released a further edition of Virgidemiarum, with a further edition then following in 1599: Virgidemiarum - The three last bookes. Of byting Satyres.

I believe it's in these last that Hall makes his jibe about ""For shame write better Labeo, or write none/Or better write, or Labeo write alone".

So Hall's jibe about fake names is nothing to do with Shakespeare but about Marston/Kinsayer, and the poem being criticised isn't Venus and Adonis, but The Metamorphosis of Pigmalion's Image and Certaine Satyres.

So the "evidence" of contemporary doubts about Shakespeare's authorship - isn't.

**

Okay, SB -- the shoe is on the other foot.

Please provide any textual analysis of Hall's work to show how all the specific qualities that Hall provides to identify "Labeo" can be properly placed upon Marston.

Since you are obviously not familiar with these works, I should warn you that Marston had no works published before Hall's Satyre was written, so it's really going to take some creativity on your part.

Maybe he had access to Marston's unprinted manuscripts?

But then, how would Hall expect any of his readers to identify "Labeo" as Marston when no one has ever heard of Marston?

But do go on.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 9  

SB replied: No, Hall is declaring that Marston used a pseudonym.

**

This is literally an impossible interpretation of Hall.

Without a shred of evidence to back you up, you repeat this falsehood with full-throated confidence to make your argument.

That is sad.

****

Mark Haslett wrote: But no men, women or children anywhere under any circumstance wrote a word about Stratford Will being a writer of any kind until long after he died.

SB replied: In 1598, Francis Mere's Palladis Tamia (1598) praised Shakespeare as a writer, while The Parnassus Plays of around 1599-1601 mocked his pretensions of being one.

**

Please provide a direct quote where Francis Meres says Shakespeare is a writer from Stratford or where the Parnassus plays do the same.

I will even be happy to concede the point if you can provide an allusion or hint from either of these sources that Shakespeare is from Stratford.

If you cannot, then it is just another instance of you playing "Mr. Scholarship" like a child pretending to be a policeman. It really takes more than typing to form an argument.

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Steven Brake
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 5:27pm | IP Logged | 10  

Mark Haslett wrote: Maybe he had access to Marston's unprinted manuscripts?

SB replied: Or maybe Marston's poems were circulated before being published in a volume, as was pretty much standard?

Mark Haslett wrote: But then, how would Hall expect any of his readers to identify "Labeo" as Marston when no one has ever heard of Marston?

SB replied: Were[ the lines  ""For shame write better Labeo, or write none/Or better write, or Labeo write alone". published in the 1597 edition of  Virgidemiarum?

This isn't a snide question - I'm having problems tracking down an online copy that I can read.

Mark Haslett wrote: Please provide a direct quote where Francis Meres says Shakespeare is a writer from Stratford or where the Parnassus plays do the same.

SB replied: Meres attributes eight plays to William Shakespeare. All eight appear in the First Folio, whose publication has been arranged by John Heminges and Henry Condell, who knew, and were named in the will of, William Shakespeare who died in Stratford-Upon-Avon.

The Parnassus Plays scorn Shakespeare's lack of learning - which they would hardly do if he was actually Oxford.

Can you provide a direct quote from any of Shakespeare's contemporaries in which they directly state that he wasn't the author? You promised to do so in an earlier post, but I haven't seen anything further.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 11  

SB: In 1605, William Camden described Shakespeare as "most pregnant witts of these ages our times, whom succeeding ages may justly admire".

**

Yes. And two years later, in 1607, Camden published the sixth edition of his Britannia, and in the section on Stratford-upon-Avon, he described this “small market-town” as owing “all its consequence to two natives of it. They are John de Stratford, later Archbishop of Canterbury, who built the church, and Hugh Clopton, later mayor of London, who built the Clopton bridge across the Avon”(Britannia 2:445). In the same paragraph, Camden called attention to George Carew, Baron Clopton, who lived nearby and was active in the town’s affairs.

Had he forgotten the well-known poet and playwright, William Shakespeare was been born and raised in Stratford-upon-Avon? Shaksper's family still lived there and the alleged poet himself had one of the grandest houses in town. (Camden noted that the poet Philip Sidney had a home in Kent, but Shakespeare? Not a word).

We know Camden was a friend of the poet and playwright Michael Drayton and he noted in his diary the deaths of the actor Richard Burbage and the poet and playwright Samuel Daniel in 1619.

But he made no note of William Shakespeare's death in April 1616-- when Stratford Will passed away.

But Camden was the one who approved the modification that John Shakespeare sought for his Coat of Arms. In 1602, Camden defended this action. And in the summer of 1600, when the famous Sir Thomas Lucy died, Camden bore Lucy’s coat of arms in the procession and conducted the funeral at Charlecote, only a few miles from Stratford-upon- Avon. Thomas Lucy knew the Shakespers. When he was justice of the peace in Stratford-upon-Avon, John Shaksper was brought up before him more than once.

So, even though William Camden revered Shakspeare, had several poet friends, and wrote poetry himself, -- and personally knew the Shakespers, father and son-- mentioned playwrights and poets in his books and diary-- he never once connected the author Shakespeare to Stratford-upon-Avon.

Yeah, I doubt that's the witness you want to use to say people actually called Will of Stratford a writer. Because he most certainly did not-- and he should have if it were true.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 June 2024 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 12  

We should recall that the dedication of the First Folio refers to Shakespeare as “our ever living poet”. Scholars have searched far and wide without being able to find any use of that phrase (ever living) to describe someone, anyone, who was still alive.

The First Folio was published in 1606. Shaksper died in 1616, DeVere in 1604/5.

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