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Rodrigo castellanos Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Location: Uruguay Posts: 1439
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Posted: 31 January 2023 at 4:39am | IP Logged | 1
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Let's say Mexico would start buying Chinese weapons, would invite Chinese military advisers into the country and maybe sign a alliance treaty with the Chinese, the ink on the paper would not yet be dry and American troops would be in Mexico City.
Heh.
It's the old, they only want the Sudetenland... if we abandon those Czechoslovakian people and surrender that land surely it will be "peace in our time"!
It's the old most Americans don't seem to know when the US finally got involved in WWII, what went on there and who did most of the fighting and liberation.
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7467
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Posted: 31 January 2023 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 2
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Every new twist and turn in politics is seen as "it's a repeat of X" or "it's X all over again!" when... it really isn't. We keep fighting the last war, thinking we can replay it and it'll turn out the same, and yet...
Edited by Andrew Bitner on 31 January 2023 at 2:38pm
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15729
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Posted: 31 January 2023 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 3
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QUOTE:
That is a bit naive. Let's say Mexico would start buying Chinese weapons, would invite Chinese military advisers into the country and maybe sign a alliance treaty with the Chinese, the ink on the paper would not yet be dry and American troops would be in Mexico City. |
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Let's say Mexico did that. It would not be like Russia invading Ukraine, would it?
Russia invading Ukraine is like this, using your example:
Mexico signs an alliance with China in 2005 and China puts a base there. The US says nothing for over a decade. Then 18 years later, the US invades Canada in response.
That is like Russia invading Ukraine because they don't like NATO bases in Latvia.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15729
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Posted: 31 January 2023 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | 4
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My mistake. The Baltic states joined NATO in 2004.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4410
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Posted: 01 February 2023 at 1:57am | IP Logged | 5
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I'm in Canada, 'we' got in in '39. I had a grandfather and great uncles who fought and my father was born in an occupied country.
But sure, let's just tell the Ukrainians (who were not even under consideration to join Nato) to surrender to the unprovoked invader because they/he might nuke the planet. Because Biden evil, the U.S. evil... whatever.
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Rodrigo castellanos Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Location: Uruguay Posts: 1439
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Posted: 02 February 2023 at 4:44am | IP Logged | 6
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I'm in Canada, 'we' got in in '39. I had a grandfather and great uncles who fought and my father was born in an occupied country.
Conceded. (I lived in Toronto for a few years as a kid by the way and have huge appreciation for the country and great memories)
But sure, let's just tell the Ukrainians (who were not even under consideration to join Nato) to surrender to the unprovoked invader because they/he might nuke the planet.
Nobody is saying that, only a Sith deals in absolutes, etc.
I know it's hard to be anything close to objective when you're over there but at a certain point I'm sure you have to at least consider the question: Is it always about a different satanic strongman and the only thing standing in his way is our good ole American freedom? (Or North-American in this case).
Every time? They have their greasy fingers in the red button ready to nuke the planet? Doesn't that story ever get tired? After all, the only country that has nuked anything is the US.
Russia is 10,000 kms away. Countries invade other's territories every day (not justifying it!). You really think this is about the Ukrainian people?
About the Afghani people? The Iraqi? Any of the seven countries that are being currently being invaded by the US right now?
I get it in a way, and I also want the conflict to end and for the Ukrainian people to stop suffering (who wouldn't?). But this kind of unquestioning response from otherwise intelligent Americans that borders in cheerleading for war makes me nervous.
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Rodrigo castellanos Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Location: Uruguay Posts: 1439
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Posted: 02 February 2023 at 5:10am | IP Logged | 7
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That is like Russia invading Ukraine because they don't like NATO bases in Latvia.
Like most conflicts of this dimension, there are multiple possible and simultaneous causes and I'm in no way qualified to assess them.
But...
It's not "unprovoked", or "superfluous" (and I mean that in a different quote marks than the first) like I don't like some NATO bases. Countries or strongmen don't just crack and "go crazy" overnight. At least not more than the rest of their peers. There's reasons behind it. You may not agree, but they still exist.
People in the Donbass region haven been pretty much objectively oppressed for decades and by most accounts want to join Russia. There were multiple tensions on this matter, warnings and/or threats. Again, you can disagree but it's definitely not a sudden development.
These people think of themselves as Russians and if at least a portion of the Russian polls are to be believed a whole lot of Russians agree and support this (that's a whole lot of people!).
So there's stuff going on (and again, I'm not an expert I just read stuff from different countries, regions and ideologies) besides NATO bases and the strongman being crazy.
It's another example of the US news spinning world events around its own perceived (and as an intended consequence, real) relevance in matters that are happening 10.000 kms away from them which most of its people don't know anything about.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 02 February 2023 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
People in the Donbass region haven been pretty much objectively oppressed for decades and by most accounts want to join Russia. There were multiple tensions on this matter, warnings and/or threats. Again, you can disagree but it's definitely not a sudden development. |
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Objectively? There are Kremlin propaganda claims about oppression, but there's nothing concrete other than the ongoing debate whether Ukraine's attempts to establish Ukrainian as the official language in the public sector amounts to a ban on Russian in one's private life and discrimination toward Russian speakers.
QUOTE:
These people think of themselves as Russians and if at least a portion of the Russian polls are to be believed a whole lot of Russians agree and support this (that's a whole lot of people!). |
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Should I be skeptical about a referendum issued only in Russian, taken while the Donbas region was occupied, and carried out by poll workers accompanied by armed guard? I don't know, let me think about it.
The 2014 war displaced over 3 million people in the region. A good chunk of those people fled to Russia. An even larger chunk fled to other parts of the Ukraine. Who remained? Who came back? The polls independent of the 2014 referendum seemed to indicate that the region favored a decentralized Ukraine or a federation over rejoining Russia.
I was in Russia in 2018, and speaking with the people there, it is similar to the US in that there is a rural/urban divide, with people in rural areas getting most of their information from state media and people in the urban areas having access to travel and the internet. I'll let you guess which one is pro-Putin. There is also a divide between older folk who remember the Soviet era and worry that Putin is a return to it and younger folk born after the Soviet era but romanticize it as a period when the USSR was a major world power.
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Carlos Velasco Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 August 2019 Location: Spain Posts: 280
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Posted: 02 February 2023 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 9
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What many fail to understand is that the 2014 "revolution" was no different from the January 6 or the recent Brazil incidents, only this time it was labelled as a "liberation" for the "people".
In reality, let's be honest and serious here: Would the USA, France, the UK... allow "the people" to invade public administration buildings? (People from the opposition) Just because, oh gosh, the president/government made a geopolitical deal with other countries (the block of countries that they hated instead of the ones they cheered for like 13 year old fangirls)?
The final agreement to "end the crisis" in 2014 was not signed by Russia, and this was key. Russia said that in practice, this was a coup success because the invading "protesters" did not concede anything and they were not going to leave the power gained... through violence.
Let's also remember how they previously tried to overrun the pro-russian government in 2004 with accusations of manipulating the elections, something that international observers had to dismiss in 2010, when the pro-russians had a clean victory.
Why couldn't these people just wait for the next elections? Why did they have to execute that mindless revolution? Do you guys seriously think this would be acceptable in any other country considering the motivations were just "the government has made a deal with Russia instead of the EU"?
Euromaidan managed to force the resignation of the president, which then had to flee the country... It was an anti-democratic coup for the sake of the Western "values" and the Holy Euopean Union.
I recommend watching two movies by the same American director: The Manchurian Candidate and Seven Days in May. This way, coming from American sources and not Russian Today, perhaps we would all understand better the paranoia that our capitalist, christian-values, imperialist, pro-USA, anti-communist (that conveniently has been shifted to anti-evil-Putin now that they're capitalists too) and fake-massive-destruction-arms-in-Irak Western Sociaty has been based on.
Edited by Carlos Velasco on 02 February 2023 at 10:04am
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7581
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Posted: 02 February 2023 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 10
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Call me a conspiracist, but I really do see the general plan for the last few years as being, based on Russian interference:
2016 - UK leaves EU, Trump gets elected president
There is then a weakening of NATO and concerted efforts to split alliances. EU and UK are both weakened by Brexit as previous alliances are in disarray while they sort things out.
Plan being - NATO and EU are in disarray come the time for Russia to invade Ukraine. With US, having had a newly, re-elected Trump as president, refusing to support Ukraine or NATO after the invasion.
Which went wrong when Trump lost the election and NATO/EU both found renewed strength, deciding to support Ukraine and hear applications from countries that had previously never thought about joining NATO (Finland/Sweden).
And somehow, Boris found a spine and said enough is enough to Russia after running off for secret meetings without his security detail and electing oligarchs to the House of Lords.
Yes, it's a conspiracy theory, but it makes sense to me.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 02 February 2023 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 11
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QUOTE:
What many fail to understand is that the 2014 "revolution" was no different from the January 6 or the recent Brazil incidents, only this time it was labelled as a "liberation" for the "people".
In reality, let's be honest and serious here: Would the USA, France, the UK... allow "the people" to invade public administration buildings? (People from the opposition) Just because, oh gosh, the president/government made a geopolitical deal with other countries (the block of countries that they hated instead of the ones they cheered for like 13 year old fangirls)? |
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January 6 and Brazil was about the losing side refusing to accept an election. Euromaidan was in response to Yanukovych scuttling a European trade agreement that was years in the making, had previously gotten support from the Verkhovna Rada, and had majority support in the country, all because Moscow asked him to hold off. Not quite the same thing.
QUOTE:
Let's also remember how they previously tried to overrun the pro-russian government in 2004 with accusations of manipulating the elections, something that international observers had to dismiss in 2010, when the pro-russians had a clean victory. |
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15729
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Posted: 02 February 2023 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | 12
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Trying to justify Russia's 'special operation' is all special pleading (including the term 'special operation').
There may be simultaneous causes and you can contort yourself in trying to see both sides of the arugment, but there's a big disparity in the competing arguments.
Ukraine: it's our country. They invaded us. They're targeting our civilians. They're looting. They're conducting summary executions. They're shelling nuclear power stations which is a danger to everyone in general.
Russia: we are conscripting convicted criminals in a special operation to denazify parts of Ukraine. It will be a quick, simple operation. We faced German tanks in WWII and we are facing them again.
As for Putin's finger on the red button and how hysterical this view is or not, here are his words from today no less:
"Those who hope to defeat Russia on the battlefield do not understand, it seems, that a modern war with Russia will be very different for them. We are not sending our tanks to their borders, but we have the means to respond. It won't be limited to the use of armoured hardware. Everyone must understand this."
It's clear what he is talking about.
Edited by Peter Martin on 02 February 2023 at 7:25pm
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