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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 28 July 2023 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Scott, if you're going to get into this, please read someone besides this guy. He is filling your mind with straw-man arguments.

Firstly, everyone agrees that there are a dozen or so plays (including the most popular play of the age, MUCEDORUS) which were written by hidden playwrites, using the name William Shakespeare instead of their own. These are called "Shakespeare Apocrypha" and no one knows who the hidden writer/writers are except everyone agrees it was someone other than the author of the canon. If Morris doesn't think this could happen, he's an idiot because it has long been an established fact: this DID happen.

Secondly, current Stratfordian scholarship argues that Marlowe did help write the canon before he died, so there goes that little bit of sarcastic nonsense.

Thirdly, the dating of the plays has never been done using evidence of when the plays were written, but when they are first recorded as being performed. The traditional dating is often used to exclude candidates like De Vere, but any honest look at this reasoning reveals that it's a false argument. We don't know when the plays were written, but we do know that topical references within the works stop around 1604 and that the poet is referred to as "Ever Living" (meaning "dead") in 1609.

Also the argument that Shakespeare gets everything wrong about Italy is proven false. Richard Roe's 2011 "Shakespeare's Guide To Italy" proves that he, not his critics, was the one getting details correct and that his apparent errors were most often errors on the part of people who didn't know the details as well as they are presented in the plays.

That's some of the proof that this guy, Morris, doesn't have a strong argument for slapping people who disagree with him.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 28 July 2023 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Peter: What I would contribute to this thread:

The topic is interesting, but the rhetoric has been disappointing.

**

Agreed. I'd wish to see this conversation shift to a friendly-ish, good-faith give-and-take.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 28 July 2023 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: Here is the whole problem in talking to you. You say this a lot. What does this phrase mean to you?

SB wrote: By "evidence", I mean facts.

**
Then, for the sake of this discussion, could we agree that the facts are inconclusive about some key things?

For example,

The facts do not prove that Shaksper had an education.

Instead of saying "there's no evidence for this," it would be more productive to stipulate that it isn't proven, then state how you see the evidence pointing toward your conclusion.

**

SB: If [Shakespeare/Shaxper] was a businessman, he must have been able to read and write. It would have been impossible for him to have conducted business otherwise.

**
I would point out that this is a false conclusion. No one seems to dispute that John Shackspere/Shaksper (William's father) was an illiterate businessman. The majority of business was conducted by illiterates. However, I am not personally of the opinion that Shaksper could not read, just that he could not have written the works. One reason is that he had nothing like the necessary education.    



SB: Jonson's poem doesn't say that Shakespeare had no education, but that he was inadequately learned, criticisms which Jonson repeated more harshly in private conversation with William Drummond.

**
This is a misrepresentation. Jonson's remarks.

SB: The plays make constant errors that are inconsistent with someone who did receive a formal, classical education.

**
This is a misrepresentation.


SB replied: What is the purpose of such an elaborate ruse? By the time the Folio was published in 1623, pretty much anyone who would have been harmed or damaged by the truth about the true Author's identity being revealed was dead.

Why create a Folio supposedly riddled with ambiguity, subtle clues and hidden meaning rather than simply proclaiming that (for example, and taking him as the most favoured candidate) the plays within the Folio were by De Vere?

**
This is the question and very little imagination is required to answer it. Perhaps a "vulgar scandal" which meant the poet's name "must be buried where my body lay" -- as the poet himself declares in his sonnets.
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Scott Gray
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Posted: 28 July 2023 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Mark, the simple fact that there were a dozen plays supposedly written by Shakespeare that have been discounted as fakes doesn't suggest that Shakespeare wasn't real - it suggests that other people tried to profit from his reputation. 

Why hasn't the Mystery Writer who really wrote the plays ever been pinpointed? It seems very convenient to me that he remains nameless. Why haven't all these years of searching turned up a definitive candidate?

Again; the burden of proof lies on your side of the table, and you haven't provided any.
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 28 July 2023 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: Agreed. I'd wish to see this conversation shift to a friendly-ish, good-faith give-and-take.

Mark Haslett has earlier written:

Mark Haslett also wrote: You would make a terrible historian with your shifting attitude toward the role of doubt in an investigation. 

In other words, someone who has no command of the facts feels completely free to call out others arguing with more facts than he has as using "straw man arguments" with a "general absence of logic."

The absurdity of exchanging posts with you is exhausting. I not only have to bat down your misrepresentation of the facts, but I also have to navigate your constant mind reading and vacuous misrepresentation of the entire debate.

Talking with you is like talking to a three-year-old. At this point, I have to believe you’re doing it on purpose.

Not to laugh in your face, but WTF? You are not a serious person.

The recalcitrant Shakespeare lit community trumpets in solemn, absolutist tones that the evidence for Stratford Will is iron-clad and beyond any doubt. But this is, in a word, bullshit.

Mark Haslett wrote: Then, for the sake of this discussion, could we agree that the facts are inconclusive about some key things?

SB replied: Of course. Evidence can be open to different interpretations.

Mark Haslett wrote: The facts do not prove that Shaksper had an education. 

SB replied: I agree. 

Mark Haslett wrote: Instead of saying "there's no evidence for this," it would be more productive to stipulate that it isn't proven, then state how you see the evidence pointing toward your conclusion.

SB replied: As I've posted before: There's the possibility that Shakespeare attended the The King Edward VI School, but no evidence that he did. There's also Jonson's poem, which teases Shakespeare's inadequate learning, and the Parnassus Plays mocking his lack of university education.

I agree that Shakespeare did not receive a university education. I believe he may have had some degree of grammar school education, and I agree that there's no proof that he had.

Mark Haslett wrote: However, I am not personally of the opinion that Shaksper could not read, just that he could not have written the works. One reason is that he had nothing like the necessary education.  

SB replied: The works don't show a high degree of education and don't conform to the classical rules of drama of unity of time, place and action, as one would expect them to do if they were written by a classically educated author. This is the basis of Jonson and The Parnassus Plays criticisms of them.

Mark Haslett wrote: This is a misrepresentation. Jonson's remarks.

SB replied: ? I'm not sure if you meant to add something more here?

Mark Haslett wrote (in reply to my comment that "The plays make constant errors that are inconsistent with someone who did receive a formal, classical education".

This is a misrepresentation.

SB replied: No, this was a contemporary criticism, one repeated by the critics of the Augustan period (early 18th century) who much preferred Jonson who did adhere to the classical rules of drama, and is pretty much repeated in the commentary of any contemporary edition of the plays, usually replete with footnotes pointing out factual errors in the plays.

Mark Haslett wrote: This is the question and very little imagination is required to answer it. Perhaps a "vulgar scandal" which meant the poet's name "must be buried where my body lay" -- as the poet himself declares in his sonnets.

SB replied: What "scandal" would there have been in revealing the supposed truth behind the true authorship of the plays in 1623? De Vere had been dead for nearly twenty years, ditto Queen Elizabeth I, Burghley for twenty five - what was the point in maintaining the fiction of Will of Stratford's authorship by that time?

I'll quickly add that I'm assuming you consider De Vere to have been the true author, incidentally! If not, who do you think the true author was?


Edited by Steven Brake on 28 July 2023 at 6:05pm
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 28 July 2023 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: Agreed. I'd wish to see this conversation shift to a friendly-ish, good-faith give-and-take.

Mark Haslett has earlier written:

**
First-- even if the implication you are reaching for here were true, wouldn't a desire for a "shift" be a positive step?

Anyway, my interest in your replies has now completely vanished.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 28 July 2023 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Scott: Mark, the simple fact that there were a dozen plays supposedly written by Shakespeare that have been discounted as fakes doesn't suggest that Shakespeare wasn't real - it suggests that other people tried to profit from his reputation.

Why hasn't the Mystery Writer who really wrote the plays ever been pinpointed? It seems very convenient to me that he remains nameless. Why haven't all these years of searching turned up a definitive candidate?

Again; the burden of proof lies on your side of the table, and you haven't provided any.

**
First, again, the most popular play of the age was written by someone who didn't want their name on it, but put Shakespeare's instead. How did this "profit" the true writer?

The simple fact is that Shakespeare was used as pen name.

Indeed, there is a "burden of proof" to introduce any doubts for the traditional attribution. But that burden has been met. There is a great case for doubt. You may not be convinced by it, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. From your posts, I gather you have not looked at it very closely.

The question of who was actually the author is a separate question.
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 28 July 2023 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: First, again, the most popular play of the age was written by someone who didn't want their name on it, but put Shakespeare's instead. How did this "profit" the true writer?

SB replied: The authorship of Mucedorus is uncertain, but the general consensus seems to be that it was the work of George Peel, Robert Greene and Thomas Lodge, with Shakespeare possibly also contributing some scenes - although the critical consensus is against this.

As far as I know, Mucedorus was first attributed to Shakespeare in 1656, long after all four men were dead. The "true" writer - whoever he was, or they were - had no part in this decision. 
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Scott Gray
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Posted: 29 July 2023 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: The question of who was actually the author is a separate question.


It's the *critical* question, Mark, and you don't seem capable of answering it. You can make a negative argument against Shakespeare for the rest of your life, but until you make a *positive* argument for somebody else, you're not being reasonable. As soon as you do give the Mystery Writer a name, you'll have to start defending him against historical facts that hurt your case - I suspect you're not too keen on doing that.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 29 July 2023 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Scott: You can make a negative argument against Shakespeare for the rest of your life, but until you make a *positive* argument for somebody else, you're not being reasonable.

**

Is that how investigations work? Police come to a crime scene and see the evidence and hear from witnesses who say it was "Jack the Ripper" who did it. Then one cop sees that none of the evidence matches this claim and begins to suspect a cover-up... Is the only way he can talk about his suspicions is to name the actual culprit? No. First he needs to suspect there is another explanation, and then follow the evidence to its conclusion.

I can talk (too much) about the evidence that I see for my candidate (DeVere). There are many problems with DeVere as a candidate, as Stratfordians are quick to point out. Significantly, tho, what is know of his life is a better fit for Shakespeare than what is known of the Stratford Man.

There are other candidates who have their advocates. They don't convince me, but they all fit the evidence better than the yeoman's son from Stratford who supported his parents/siblings/wife/children from the age of 13, then (through a process no one can explain) arrives in London with 2 long-form poems sanctioned by the arch-Bishop of Canterbury and dedicated to a struggling 19 year old Earl of Southampton. The poems and works he has, by then produced, contain extensive references to works that haven't been translated yet, some not even available in England, and the poems become the runaway best-sellers of their day --for no apparent reason.   

So, like the cop in my example, it would seem logical that the first step is to get some doubt into the "conversation" regarding the prime suspect. At this point, however, I'm not so sure.

I kind of see where you are coming from because the way you speak is as though you believe the evidence for Shakespeare as Shakespeare of Stratford is overwhelming.

But imagine if it wasn't overwhelming. Imagine if evidence was filled with baffling contradictions. Wouldn't that make you curious to see if there was another explanation that fit the evidence better?

The problem we're running into is not that these aren't interesting questions because, by any measure, they are at least INTERESTING.

The history of this question is what Winkler's new book is about and it is illuminating because it shows that rather than ever actually ANSWERING the questions that cause doubt, the Shakespeare establishment has simply worked its ass off to shut down the questions.

So if you are actually interested, I highly recommend this book by a journalist who is not trying to advocate for a different author or even to establish that the works must have been by another author. She just presents the evidence and the complete arguments from all sides of the Question.

Link to Simon & Shuster page

Edited by Mark Haslett on 29 July 2023 at 6:20pm
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 29 July 2023 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: There are many problems with DeVere as a candidate, as Stratfordians are quick to point out. Significantly, tho, what is know of his life is a better fit for Shakespeare than what is known of the Stratford Man.

SB replied: Except that Oxford died in 1604, and plays under the name William Shakespeare continued for about a decade after that. It is now widely accepted that the plays were written in collaboration with a series of authors, such as George Peele, Christopher Marlowe, Thomas Middleton, George Wilkins, and John Fletcher.

The plays do not confirm to the rules of drama that would be expected of someone who had received a classical education, and were mocked by contemporaries such as Ben Jonson and in The Parnassus Plays for that very reason. They also make repeated slips regarding geography and genealogy that is impossible to reconcile with a well-travelled nobleman.

The argument of "the stigma of print" - that a nobleman could not possibly be known as the author of mere popular drama - is disproven by Oxford being named as an author in Francis Meres' Palladis Tamia, and suffering no ill consequences, and also by his own daughter pleading with Robert Cecil to allow her husband, William Stanley, the 5th Earl of Derby, to keep writing them.
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Scott Gray
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Posted: 31 July 2023 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: Is that how investigations work? Police come to a crime scene and see the evidence and hear from witnesses who say it was "Jack the Ripper" who did it. Then one cop sees that none of the evidence matches this claim and begins to suspect a cover-up... Is the only way he can talk about his suspicions is to name the actual culprit? No. First he needs to suspect there is another explanation, and then follow the evidence to its conclusion.


A better analogy would be that the police find a dead body in an alley, follow a trail of blood across the street to a house and find a bloke inside holding a blood-stained knife saying, "I did it." And then somebody says, "But maybe he *didn't* do it! Maybe it was that Jack the Ripper guy who nobody can actually identify but we have lots of theories on who he *might* be!"
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