I'm curious to hear the opinions of J.B. and any longtime Avengers fans on the "state" of the Vision. How did he go from being one of the most popular members in the late 60's & 70's to his current status ( ripped in two during Avengers Dissassembled and unceremoniously dumped into a box at Stark Industries)?

There was a time when the Vision was considered such a integral member of the Avengers that he served as part of the Avengers logo ( from November 1971 to June 1979). His origins, attempts to find his "place" in the world, and his courtship/ marriage to Wanda were central events to Avengers storylines ever since his creation by Roy Thomas & John Buscema way back in Avengers 57 ( by the way ...has any characters first on panel appearance EVER been cooler ...not to me).

The Vision started going wrong ( for me) around Avengers 238 - 255 when he started to develop a more human ( for lack of a better word) personality). I also NEVER bought the Vision as the team chairman. Although I am a fan of Roger Sterns work, I was a little disapointed with the direction the Vision was going in ( although his attempted world takeover WAS a interesting plot scenario). This did lead to J.B.s superb "Vision Quest" storyline in West Coast Avengers! I loved the "new" look of the Vision under J.B. ( especially the homage cover for WCA # 45); I thoroughly enjoyed WCA under JB's direction but I dropped them as soon as he departed.

For many of the same reasons I have seen other readers mention, I took a near decade long vacation from the Avengers & comics in general ...missed almost the entire 90's ( lucky me from what I have heard). I twisted in the wind for years until rumors of a new Avengers book with George Perez on pencils and some fella named Busiek writing brought me back to check on things. What can I say? I loved the art and the writing too BUT I was a little taken aback by the Victor Shade persona that Vision sometimes hid behind. I suppose I felt a little disapointed that he was trying to fit in by "passing" as a human after all this time; leave that crap to Data or Pinocchio. I also was not too crazy about Wonder Man giving Wanda his "Wonder Love" BUT it did fit the storyline well enough ( I have always HATED Wonder Man from his return waaaaay back in Avengers #153). 

At this point I have my first real question for John ( or the board) in your story line you mentioned that not only was the Vision not the original Human Torch but that he was also not the work of Professor Horton...did you (or anyone) ever elaborate on what his real origins were? Do you ( J.B. or the board) mind the retro fit done on the character? I read the 12 issue Avenger Forever mini ( that contends that the Vision & the Torch are still one in the same) and I am aware that storyline effectively makes the question moot but I am still interested. Personally I like AF and do not have any problem with it. 

That brings us to Disassembled...uh..geez ...I realized that the Vision was no longer a big timer in the group but I really was not expecting this!

I also can't believe that the powers that be at Marvel would not at least show us a scene with SOMEONE ( hint Iron man, Hank Pym, Reed Richards) trying to recreate him! Does anyone else feel this way? Do you ( J.B. or others) feel that there is anyway that the Vision will ever return to his "glory years" or has he become just another character butchered for good by the "New" Marvel? 

I sorry if this topic is a little long and has a few too many images BUT I really want to know what others think. I have been pondering this issue for months now.

One other question ... anyone have any favorite Vision scenes, covers, artists, plot lines they would like to mention? Bring 'em on!

As poorly as Bendis treated Vision (and everyone else) in "Avengers Disassembled", I have hope for some decent follow-up work in YOUNG AVENGERS by Alan Heinberg. He's already revisited The Vision in a pretty cool way, and the stuff he's doing with the daughter of the Scott Lang Ant-Man is also very good. I suppose one could just look on it as damage control, but my sense is that this guy actually respects classic Marvel and would probably be a much better fit on the regular AVENGERS than Bendis. He's said Bendis is an influence, but a more recent interview I read had him citing Geoff Johns as a more immediate influence these days.

Which bodes well.

-Dave

Hi Dave,

I did see the Vision in Young Avengers. It was a nice tip of the hat BUT I hope it leads to his return to the big Avengers book. I have to admit that Young Avengers was a pleasant suprise so far ( I borrowed a buddies issues). It should be interesting to see where it goes.

What I liked about the Vision's appearance in YA was that it seemed a cool throwback to the Stern days when the Vision was on his "take over the world to save it" kick. Nothing that extreme now, of course, but I liked that Vision's world-saving altruism was behind the formation of the Young Avengers. That's respect.

But yeah, they still need to fix his ass! Maybe something that Iron Lad can do? And, yes, Iron Lad is a silly sort of name outside the Legion... ;)

Oh, and my favorite Vision moments, randomly recalled...

*My first encounter with the character was in an issue of THE AVENGERS my brother owned that had lost its cover, but the first page was a doozy: Vision versus Wonder Man in a hardcore brawl that showed off all the Vision's powers, including his creepy intangibility/disruption trick (seems like more of a villain thing, doesn't it?). The team fought Graviton later in the issue, but that brutal opening clash was what stuck with me.

*One of the most violent images I came across in a superhero comic as a kid had to be in the opening of the first VISION/SCARLET WITCH miniseries. Know the one? I forget the hows and whys, but the splash page has the Whizzer dying, Scarlet Witch unconscious and maybe dead, and the Vision with his arm melted gorily to the ground. If memory serves, Vison sees Wanda stir, and on realizing she might be helped, he goes on to sever his molten arm with the laser on his forehead so he can get to her. Jesus!

*Had a MARVEL SUPER-ACTION reprint of an old AVENGERS story where the public thinks the Black Panther's gone bad. Lots of heavy-handed racial equality messages in the issue, but the Vision scene I remember had him patrolling the streets looking for the imposter Black Panther. Everyone's freaking out because the Vision's so scary-looking himself, so he just phases through the ground and into the sewers, never breaking his robotic pace. Which just makes him seem more inhuman to gape-jawed onlookers!

*One of the first comics I ever bought (three-pack from the grocery store) was a hokey-but-fun Jim Shooter story where the team fought the Weathermen. Vision's investigating rogue whether patterns in Kansas with the Scarlet Witch - both in a Quinjet - when they're set upon by these super-amped tornados. The Quinjet's caught up in one, everything's going nuts, and the Scarlet Witch says, "Vision, do something!" "I am, my wife," he responds icily, captions informing us of his density increase which brings the Quinjet down hard, but intact. I really liked his eerie coolness and the fact that he got 'em out of trouble without ever moving from his seat.

And lastly...

*Ant-Man's fantastic voyage in Vision's body during the Kree/Skrull issues - 'nuff said!

I'm sure I missed some good one's, but my AVENGERS issues starring him are actually pretty spotty. Great character, though. Like Hawkeye, he wasn't there in the beginning, but I all but consider him a core member because I so identify him with the team. Brilliant visuals, too. His costume should never change.

-Dave

John Harris wrote: I remember that one well...Avengers 158! That was the first big Wonder Man/ Vision fight! That was very cool! Sal Buscema did a great job on the artwork!

Wow, it's almost more violent than I remembered!

"Yes. I can hurt you."

Chilling. Appropriately so, but chilling.

-Dave

Oh yeah, and Iron Man's relaxed attitude can't help but come across as darkly amusing. Great, he doubts they'll kill each other! Maybe...but he doubts it. Very comforting!

-Dave

Funny that you mention that Dave...I feel the same way! Iron Man came off as a complete ass in that issue by saying that and telling the Vision to act like a adult or a "Robot" on the following page.I can remember that pissing me off even as a kid ... I kind of wanted to see him kick I.M.s ass next HA !

Giving a nod to J.B. I think my favorite "Vision moment" was Avengers 166; the showdown with a super powered count Nefaria! All the big guns took a shot at Nefaria (Thor, Iron Man, Wonderman) but it took the Vision to put him down for the count. Great story,nice George Perez cover, fantastic interior art by John B with inking by Pablo Marcos. This is a MUST have issue if you like super hero battles!

Yes, the Vision has fallen mightily, and I think for the very reason John Harris stated.  By making the Vision "more human," it took away the one thing that made the Vision stand out as a character.  I was also totally disenchanted with the "Victor Shade" person Busiek was using as well.  It just seemed totally false.

I don't blame Roger Stern too much though.  The Vision as Chairman was a good plot device - no one in the Marvel Universe much understood either which underscored how much humans mistrusted an android leading their Avengers.  I think Steve Englehart's portrayal in the 2nd Vizh/Witch miniseries and in West Coast Avengers "domesticated" him too much.

While I certainly did not like the monochrome look of the Byrne Vision in AWC, I did dig the storyline.  I think if he was colored a bit more like his original colors even if toned down to the feel Mr Byrne wanted (say a pale green) I would have liked it a lot more.

To be honest, I think one reason the Vision suffers is that he has an unusual power, and too many writers nowadays do not seem to know what to do with unusual powers.  They understand "punch" or "blast," but not how to use other powers creatively in battle.  Hurts a lot of characters in general.  I find few super battles in comics today to have any excitement like they used to.

I think the other thing that killed the Vision was the reemergence of the Martian Manhunter in JLA over at DC. In all seriousness, compare the eerily cool persona of the Vision with the current incarnation of the Martian Manhunter. It's as if the character packed his bags and went over to the competition. Could it be that fandom can only take one oddly colored, bald and calm, ultra-powerful hero at a time (unless the other one is riding a board in space)?

To be fair to Kurt Busiek, the Victor Shade persona was a Bob Harras device.  Check the 4 issue Vision miniseries (available in fine quarter boxes everywhere...)

Ladd ~ Updated to add the nice Epting artwork...