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Topic: Question Concerning Phoenix/Dark Phoenix for JB (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 02 May 2008 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | 1  

I never knew Stern was fired from Marvel. How'd that happen?
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John Richard
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Posted: 02 May 2008 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 2  

In my eyes, I always wanted the book to look/read like the JB years.
+++

Same here.  I think the book coasted for almost twenty years on the Dark Phoenix momentum.
************************************************************ ***********************************************

Sales wise or creatively?

Sales wise the growth of the X-men was due to 3 factors.
1-  Creative continuity due to Claremont's long tenure as writer.
2-  The direct market was growing in the 80's.
3-  Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars, which has been declared creatively bankrupt by some, helped boost the sales and awareness of many characters and titles. Uncanny X-men and Amazing Spider-Man were both able to hold the readers that they had gained.

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Jason Ditzel
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Posted: 03 May 2008 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 3  

I picked up X-Men at issue 174.

I was aware of the X-Men from my neighbor, starting with issue 171.

I was reading Star Wars, Amazing Spider-Man, and The Fantastic Four at that time.

All of the Dark Phoenix stuff at that point made me search for the JB back issues.

I knew I enjoyed the stories and the characters on the FF at that time.

....waitaminute!  It's the SAME ARTIST...

And a Byrne fan was born.

I stopped reading X-Men around 217.  I really enjoyed the stories from 108-210 (the Mutant Massacre).  Claremont removed my favorite characters from the book.

I still don't understand why editorial allowed that to happen.

Dazzler, Gambit, Longshot as X-Men?  Please.

Hidden Years was the first X-Men run I've enjoyed since then.

I sporadically pick up the X-Men every once in a while, hoping that I'll open the book and a Hidden Years or FX like story is inside.  I've been disappointed.

 

 

 

 

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Brandon Carter
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Posted: 03 May 2008 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 4  

I never knew Stern was fired from Marvel. How'd that happen?

*******

Here's a link to a huge interview with Roger Stern.  The part dealing specifically with the firing is below.

http://www.marvelmasterworks.com/features/int_stern_1006_1.h tml

 

GK: All right, how did you end up at DC? Were you a little disillusioned with Marvel after a while?

RS: I wound up at DC because I was fired from the Avengers and no Marvel editor was returning my calls.

No, I take that back, I did get one call. Jim Salicrup had become the editor of the Spider-Man titles and he called me up and offered me work on Spectacular Spider-Man. But this was right after Spider-Man – well, Peter Parker – had gotten married to Mary Jane Watson, which I thought was a huge mistake for both characters. So I thanked Jim and asked him to give me a call if and when that fell apart.

But I wasn’t disillusioned with Marvel, so much as I was disappointed in the place. I’d been working steadily for them for nearly twelve years, turning out stories that I thought were pretty good. The readership seemed to agree, and I’d never gotten any complaints from any of my editors. But then, suddenly, it was all over.

I’d disagreed with one editorial suggestion about the Avengers line-up. My editor wanted a change that I thought distasteful, and I sent him a memo to that effect. I would have liked to have discussed the matter further, but I was never given a chance. Instead, I received a message that I was fired.

And then, I discovered that my exclusive Marvel contract was pretty much worthless. Thanks to some wording in the fine print, I was required to deliver so many pages of material to Marvel in a given time, but Marvel wasn’t required to give me any assignments. An interesting Catch-22. Fortunately, the contract also had an escape clause, so I exercised it and went calling on Mike Carlin, who by that time had landed at DC.

 

Here's a link to the Mark's Remark's from Avengers 288 to show the other perspective.

http://www.geocities.com/mh_prime/8802.html

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 May 2008 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 5  

Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars, which has been declared creatively
bankrupt by some, helped boost the sales and awareness of many
characters and titles.

••

Not so. Most titles, in fact, saw a drop in sales while SECRET WARS
was running. Concerned by something I thought was specific to
FANTASTIC FOUR, I mentioned the drop to Assistant Editor Mike Higgins,
who culled together sales on all the other Marvel books of the time, and
discovered that their drops, added together, produced the sales of
SECRET WARS. So rather than creating a whole new sales generator, as
Shooter maintained, SW had merely "shared the wealth" -- at a cost in
sales to most books.

(This was brought home to me a while later, flying back from a
convention in Atlanta. I was wearing my Marvel jacket, with Spider-Man
emblazoned on the back, and apparently seeing this as some indication of
my sterling character, a young father asked me if I would escort his son,
about eight years old, who was flying back to his mother in Chicago. I
did this, and sat next to the lad. We talked about comics, and I showed
him xeroxes of upcoming issues of FF. He recognized everyone but Sue -
- who, of course, had been pregnant and not included in SECRET WARS.
Probing further, I discovered that he knew only those characters who
had appeared in SW. Why should he spend his money on issues of
SPIDER-MAN, HULK, FF, X-MEN, etc, when he could get 'em all in a single
monthly package?)
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 03 May 2008 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 6  

Shooter/SECRET WARS drove me away from buying/reading all Marvel comics.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 03 May 2008 at 11:11am | IP Logged | 7  

 Martin Redmond wrote:
Speeaking of old X-Men stuff, Marvel is reprinting Dave Cockrum's 2 inventory issues soon.


I thought there was just one unpublished Cockrum X-Men story.  I remember seeing a page or two published in Alter Ego a few years ago.  Roger Stern's anecdote that you linked to just mentions one story... where is the other one from?
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Christopher Alan Miller
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Posted: 03 May 2008 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 8  

I'm trying to think of what changes Stern didn't like without going back and reading the books. Was it Doctor Druid or Marrina? Whatever it was it's a shame they let him go. He wrote some great Avengers stories.
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Jeff W Williams
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Posted: 03 May 2008 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 9  

Secret Wars was my introduction to the Marvel Universe, along with a bunch of my friends.  Without Secret Wars, I'd never have started reading Marvel.  Maybe it's not the best writing ever, but I loved it.  
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Gregg Halecki
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Posted: 03 May 2008 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 10  

Funny thing about Secret Wars to me....
Issue #2 was the first book I ever remember seeing on a spinner rack and going myself to get. I know that there are random issues before that where I KNOW I purchased myself (as opposed to taking my brothers' stuff or actually going out with one of them to get books) like a random issue of ROM, Master of Kung Fu, Justice League, but that is the first one I actually remember seeing through the window and going in to get it. At the time I liked it for all of the ususal cool things, but recognized the crap that several points of the story were.

Back on topic:

JB, all things considered, would you have done anything significantly diferent if you had to go back and redo the Dark Phoenix saga? Considering how the ending was changed at the last minute from what you had intended, and how the later retcon/reveal that Phoenix wasn't REALLY Jean at all, would you have :
A) Made the "real" Jean appear at the end of that story, if you knew that she was going to show up anyway years later
or
B) Made Dark Phoenix ever worse, or "more evil" if you knew you were going to kill her at the end anyway?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 May 2008 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 11  

I'm trying to think of what changes Stern didn't like without going back and
reading the books.

••

As I recall, Roger wanted his Captain Marvel to lead the Avengers, and
Gruenie deemed her not yet worthy of such a lofty position. Mind you, this is
the same Mark who, not so very long after, used his position as #2 at Marvel
to shoehorn Quasar -- his character -- into the team, along with the
insistence that he get maximum air play. So it's a pretty typical what-goes-
around scenario.
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 03 May 2008 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 12  



JB: "SW had merely 'shared the wealth' -- at a cost in
sales to most books."


*****


Makes sense to me - I had a certain amount of money allocated for comics and had to pick and choose.

The main reason I left comics was money - I was still enjoyoing everything i was reading, but I was spending everything on comics and had no money for movies with my brother, pizza, and non-comic-books stuff like novels, comedy books, film books, etc.


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