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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 22 June 2018 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

"many children will never be reunited with their parents"

I haven't heard this anywhere reliable yet. NBC news and probably others seem to be mostly 'asking the question' about reunions. Also the numbers seem to change in the same way Trump's do... I saw a very worked-up anti-Trump guy on CNN state first 2,300, then 2,500, finally ending up at 2,700 in one half minute while saying "I don't know". Let's just hear from people who do know. Same with the new stories of abuse starting to get 'mentioned'. Newspapers used to want to nail a story down 100% before going to press, now we get gossip and opinions thrown in as infotainment.

If someone caught smuggling cocaine has their kid taken away that's fine with me. That should go without saying.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 22 June 2018 at 1:27pm
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 22 June 2018 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Michael, so much use of logic. Careful with that!! Oh why am I warning you. Logic never works with the eternally contradictory citizens. There is no chance of disproving that America is in dire straights due to all the wealth exiting the country from people illegally crossing the boarder 10-20 years ago. Immigrants caused the housing crisis, the financial collapse and are behind every school shooting. Immigrants are destroying America. /sarcasm off
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 22 June 2018 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

A list of false statements the President has made this week: LINK
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 22 June 2018 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I haven't heard this anywhere reliable yet. NBC news and probably others seem to be mostly 'asking the question' about reunions.

******
700 migrant children who were separated from their parents at the border are being housed in NY. Health & Human Services won’t even tell Gov. Cuomo where they are being kept, or when they were even coming.

Dems have called for a government audit of the health department’s process to track separated families, such as whether the refugee office has been keeping a master list of children separated from their parents - a question that HHS officials have repeatedly declined to answer.

It isn't hard to determine (nor is it gossip or opinion) that many children have been displaced throughout several states and whether they can easily be returned to their parents is a BIG crisis right now.

Heartbreaking - LINK

-C!
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 2:18am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

 Rebecca Jansen wrote:
...thanks to this media hysteria...

You continually write this or similar phrases in this thread, painting the media in an extremely negative light.  As if the "media" has somehow created this situation out of whole cloth.  Are we to believe your narrative that it's all manufactured hysteria, that the "media" is just manipulating their audience by blowing the last two weeks all out of proportion?  Or believe a certain Faux "News" host saying that where kids are being kept is like "summer camp"?  

For a minute, skip the media and go with the facts:
  
- We know children as young as 8 months old are being separated from their families and put in "tender age" facilities.  
- We know that older children are housed in cages, no matter how some want to parse the meaning of the word "cage".  
- We know that anywhere from 2,200 - 2,700 kids were separated from their parents in the weeks that "zero tolerance" was enacted without parsing actual numbers that the Department of Health and Human Services can't even estimate (which shows how large and fast this policy hit them).  
- We know from numerous reports that record keeping and tracking of these children separated from their parents is less than optimal and that's being kind.  
- We know that there is a huge profit being made by corporations who feed and house immigrants, both adult and child. Many of them are affiliated with the same for-profit incarceration industry here in the US that is notorious for its abuse of inmates as well as lobbying for extended stays for prisoners (and now in this case detainees) because their profit margins only increase.

All of this within a month.  None of this was policy in any other administration, Republican or Democrat. None.  Zip.  If you read that it was, that's false information. Full stop.

So I'd ask; if you can't get angry about that irrespective of the way in which it's covered but simply based on the facts of the situation, then what can you honestly get angry about?  Seriously.  If you want to keep painting coverage as "hysterical" thereby downplaying it all, then by all means do so.  But I'll keep countering that it's not only not hysterical, but there needs to be much more attention paid to this issue.  The Executive Order and the shitshow surrounding the constantly shifting narrative pushed by this Administration over the last two weeks is not only shameful, but indicative of the chaos that Trump thrives on based on forty years of published and televised material about his managerial style. Only now?  Now it affects so many more people and will set policy for a generation and the judiciary well past my lifetime. 

In short?  I couldn't disagree with your assessment more if I tried.
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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 2:25am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

If you think this GROSSLY INCOMPETENT administration can manage to return EVERY separated child back to their rightful parent/parents then you are fucking crazy.

It’s been widely reported that there simply is no regulated plan in place that is keeping track of both parent and child in this debacle.  

This is a shitshow born of Trump’s political need to play “Big bad racist hero” to his rabid base.  There are PLENTY of European illegals in America.  Where is the policy that demonizes them publicly?    

Every moment of this is simply to make those scared, racist voters feel better that SOMEBODY is fighting against the flow of brown skinned people into this country.  

Trump is a Klansman’s wet dream.




Edited by David Allen Perrin on 23 June 2018 at 2:25am
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 3:52am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Republicans are running with the story that the pic of the crying girl on the cover of Time wasn't separated from her mom.  Fine.  She wasn't.  But where I'd say that's the exception rather that the "zero tolerance" rule given over two thousand kids have already been separated from their parents is fact, Republicans still want use the exception to spin it as a false narrative. One instance (and probably more than one) does not, in any way, negate the thousands who were less than fortunate. But so it goes.

And then we have this from notorious hard-line Republican and White Supremacist sympathizer Rep. Steve King from Iowa who has been known to reTweet a self-described Nazi sympathizer named Mark Collett, (a prominent British far-right activist):

Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa), one of the party’s most hard-line voices on immigration, argued that Trump should be focusing more on culture in devising and articulating his policies.

“I don’t hear this president speaking much about race, [but] for me, there are cultural distinctions that matter,” King said. “Whenever you import large numbers of people from singular cultures, you import the culture, too. That’s why a movement towards assimilation in the broader American civilization is so important. That’s been pushed on the back burner and it should be on the front burner.”

Link

This is a fear of "the other" pure and simple.  The fear of assimilation has infested our country since before the Civil War, amplified by Jim Crow laws and the violent push back to the Civil Rights movement, and carried into the rampant gerrymandering of districts to disenfranchise non-whites. It's why FDR approved internment camps filled with Americans who were of Japanese dissent. It's why we, as a country, took Indian children from their families to assimilate them to White culture. To wrap it all up in a "nice bow", it's why people are so afraid of people of color.  They're not afraid of European immigrants because, well, they look like us***, but they're afraid of brown people. Whites are a diminishing population worldwide, but it's only just hit America over the last decade.  California, the state I live in, became the first where whites are the minority beginning in 2015 and that scares the shit out of many people.  Where California goes, so eventually goes the rest of the country.  And there are those that are fighting hard against it.  

So I'm sorry if I don't accept that the last couple of months has nothing to do with race considering how Trump and his administration has decided to frame the immigration conversation as, at varying points, "The best Taco Bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill. I love Hispanics!" to then claiming that most Hispanics are rapists, murderers and the worst they send across the border (although "some" are "good people"...equivocation at its finest!), and then shifting to shouts of MS-13 (a gang created in America, FYI) and "infestations" as if Mexicans and South Americans are nothing more than cockroaches.  

It's shameful how Trump frames those that don't look like him and it's appalling the lengths to which he'll deny them the American Dream. 

***Wasn't always the case. Americans were equally afraid of Italians, Jews, Catholics and Germans who were all predominantly White, but who we, as Americans, didn't consider "White enough". 

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 7:01am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

The Nazis would be proud. If Trump were enacting these measures against Jews instead of immigrants - or Russians, Romany, or other "undesirables" - he could hang that goddamned swastika and we could start that civil war right now.

I'm not even sure that Trump is the main problem anymore. If a crazy man told me "Eat that crap sandwich", I could tell him to go to hell. If he told me, "Eat that crap sandwich and maybe I'll give you a hundred thousand dollars", I'd still give him the bus schedule to Hades.

But if he told me to eat a crap sandwich, and hundreds of thousands of people were supporting that, and urging it down my throat... or even forcing it into my mouth... I wouldn't know what to do. I wouldn't know how to fight back. But I'd wonder why the hell no one was there to help me.

This was the straw that could well have broken the camel's back, I think; but where is the outrage? On some news stations and newspapers. "Fake" media that everyone knows is real. Actions taken by bold and decent people and corporations... even if not enough.

Why aren't there protesters a dozen deep outside every Republican official's offices? No Republican has any excuse to not stand up and  immediately demand - DEMAND - an end to ANY policy involving children being kidnapped for no good reason.

How does any person - decent or not - manage to sleep knowing that they're condoning this? To stand up to be counted with the worst monsters throughout history?

If this action didn't stir every American to near-revolutionary responses, maybe we are approaching the end. As I say... the Nazis are celebrating.
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Paul Buchanan
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 8:51am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

You continually write this or similar phrases in this thread, painting the media in an extremely negative light.  As if the "media" has somehow created this situation out of whole cloth.  Are we to believe your narrative that it's all manufactured hysteria, that the "media" is just manipulating their audience by blowing the last two weeks all out of proportion?  Or believe a certain Faux "News" host saying that where kids are being kept is like "summer camp"?  

Matt, you continue to use straw man arguments to try to strengthen your point. No one suggested the Media created this story "Out of Whole Cloth". But what they do is play up to a certain narrative. Presentation of the story is done in a way to turn the emotions in a certain direction. Not to say it's not an emotional issue. It is. But you keep blowing off the Time magazine cover, which is a perfect example of what the media does. No one is saying this story is complete fabrication. But to act like this situation is completely new, or that a single person (Trump of course) is to blame is naive.

For a minute, skip the media and go with the facts:
  
- We know children as young as 8 months old are being separated from their families and put in "tender age" facilities.  
- We know that older children are housed in cages, no matter how some want to parse the meaning of the word "cage".  

Once again, there's a reason for parsing the word "Cage". Why not use the word "detention area", "holding cel", "holding pen/area"? Those are the words used in prisons for detaining people.They're equally as accurate, descriptive and very commonly used when detaining people.Everyone knows what they mean. "Cages" wasn't thrown around when the same methods were used in previous administrations. Again, not that cages is necessarily inaccurate. But, don't pretend that it's not also being used for emotional manipulation. Remember "Dreamers"? Again another example of rhetorical manipulation that has been pushed over the last couple of years. 


- We know that there is a huge profit being made by corporations who feed and house immigrants, both adult and child. Many of them are them are affiliated with the same for-profit incarceration industry here in the US that is notorious for its abuse of inmates as well as lobbying for extended stays for prisoners (and now in this case detainees) because their profit margins only increase.

As usual, the evil corporations are to blame. Lol. You present this as if it's something new in the current situation. It's not. But again, it fits into the evil/heartless Trump corporate loving narrative.





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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

 Paul Buchanan wrote:
Matt, you continue to use straw man arguments to try to strengthen your point. No one suggested the Media created this story "Out of Whole Cloth". But what they do is play up to a certain narrative. Presentation of the story is done in a way to turn the emotions in a certain direction.


Maybe, but it's not like they need a lot of help. And frankly, how are they supposed to report this to your satisfaction. The very statement "children are being forcibly separated from their parents" is going to fire up those who care about such things but not using it isn't being truthful. Anyone in the administration who has attempted to defend the new policy on its own merits acknowledges up front that taking the kids away was a feature of the "zero tolerance" policy, not a bug.    


 QUOTE:
But to act like this situation is completely new,


The part that's really riling up the public - the forcible separation of children from their parents as a matter of course rather than as an occasional option in cases where there are concerns about the safety of the child - IS new. That's kind of the point.


 QUOTE:
or that a single person (Trump of course) is to blame is naive.


It's the Trump Administration. As much as he likes to claim otherwise, anything that occurs under Trump's watch is his responsibility. Or to phrase it another way - Trump IS to blame for anything that happens under his watch, especially if it's something he expressly supports and/or where he can stop it easily but chooses not to.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 10:21am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I don't get Fox news channel. From what i do get I have seen a few things shown and reshown day after day after day and the media, including CBC and CTV Canada, BBC,CNN absolutely are hammering this situation to absolute death, reporting rumors at times too. I am in the middle politically and I see two extremes spinning out crazier and more extreme taking everyone further from anything positive happening (other than kicking some of the Trump butt smoochers out of office in the mid-terms.

If you are going to dish it out you are going to have to take it sometimes. Nazis again? Knock that garbage off already. That fit for the Charleston thing sure, but everything is not jackbooted Mein Kampf toters. It helps nobody start to question this blundering Trump by throwing this kind of stuff around is how I feel.

People used to criticize the Republicans when they were the opposition to Obama for not coming up with solutions of their own. Shoe on other foot right now... come up with solutions. People have probably either clued in that Trump is a racist and incompetent or are not going to by now, so hitting that nail with all the force in the world for over a week is not going to do it.

Hysteria is what it looks like to me on top of the real and human situation, and the hysteria is just going backwards again and the supposed news 'cycles' feeding on itself manufacturing the same kind of outrage on one side as on the other in terms of effect. It's absolutely playing Trump's/Bannon's/Conway's/whoever's stupid game, you have to know that by now. You don't want to be stupid, to be a ball batted between a couple extremes like these refugees and migrants.

If it were up to me I'd take in 10,000 families from Mexico and central and south America for Canada. I know they are good people even though there can be problems with a few from coming out of a lawless situation (as with Vietnam for quite awhile and some parts of Paksitan and the Indian border region). Somehow the hysteria has to be brought down not elevated and magnified. As you don't like one side exaggerating, the way to confront that is not to inflate things yourself, not to say one lie compared to a thousand is equal, and look at the misrepresentation of that one photo of one little girl rushed out to outrage viewers... that now gives some added credibility to the racists, Coulters, and Trump backers. Nice one! Not. Time and everyone who ran that without the full story has blown it, so why dump even more half information and name-calling on top when that's supposed to be what you are against?
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 23 June 2018 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 12 post reply


 QUOTE:
I am in the middle politically and I see two extremes spinning out crazier and more extreme taking everyone further from anything positive happening (other than kicking some of the Trump butt smoochers out of office in the mid-terms.

More damaging is people from the “middle” claiming false equivalence. No doubt that there is a left-wing media bias, but behaving like what they are doing and what the right-wing media is doing are the same thing is bullshit. You are concerned about giving credibility to racists? That is what you are doing right now. Certainly, call out bias and misinformation from every source, but this “both sides” thing is bullshit. 


 QUOTE:
People used to criticize the Republicans when they were the opposition to Obama for not coming up with solutions of their own. Shoe on other foot right now... come up with solutions. People have probably either clued in that Trump is a racist and incompetent or are not going to by now, so hitting that nail with all the force in the world for over a week is not going to do it.

An excellent example of shitty false equivalence. A Republican majority in Congress blocking any attempt at movement from the Obama administration is not the same thing as a Democratic minority in Congress unable to advance anything under the Trump administration. 
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