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Fred J Chamberlain Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4036
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | 1
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. Thing is, if someone is buying this as a collectible, it’s only a couple of steps beyond a xerox.
Beginning about 10 years ago, I began noticing what became tons of transparencies flooding onto ebay. While these are labeled "production art", the only production involved is by the guys selling them. There is a market of incredibly uneducated buyers out there.
(Disclaimer: I do not consider myself educated in most areas of life, much less in the oa market.)
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6426
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | 2
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I can tell this seems insane to you, John. I think you’re right in the sense that xeroxes are literally duplicates and, by definition, not the real thing. It reminds me of the fleet of ships that could have been built with all the wood that came from Shakespeare’s legendary mulberry tree. People wanted anything that, in any sense, came from the bard.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 3
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On the other paw... if it's the only extant example of a different version of a famous cover, even though it's only a paste-up (is Gaspar's lettering 'original' or also a paste-up of a copy) it is a one-of-a-kind thing even if possibly untouched by any of the artists involved. A pretty minor curiosity to one can be I guess a crown of a collection to another.
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Tim O Neill Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10937
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | 4
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I don't think we have heard from a reliable source who was there that this is real. This is one of the very few instances in which I would actually want to hear from Jim Shooter!
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Dave Kopperman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3353
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | 5
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Weirdly, while this kind of thing seems to be of less inherent value than original pencil & ink art, it's probably a much rarer thing and so could have some justification for a higher price. And while there are still some artists today who prefer to work in analog media, lettering and other paste-up - at least in the majors - is all-digital, all-the-time, so I can see value in this just as an artifact.
I totally get where JB is coming from in terms of not seeing its value, having worked through the era. But there's a big part of me that very much wants to make sure the old production methods are remembered and celebrated - it's really the same reason I hate to see original art hand colored at the request of a later collector. When it's gone, it's gone.
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Fred J Chamberlain Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4036
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | 6
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How is this a rare thing…? It can be easily replicated and is a copy of parts of an original one of a kind piece.
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Dave Kopperman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3353
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | 7
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If it's an era-made paste-up, as has been suggested by other professionals, then these things are rare (and this one does seem to be a one of a kind piece - of production work). If it's something someone just did recently as an homage, then of course it's not of any real value either as a collectable or as an artifact.
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Dave Kopperman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3353
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | 8
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Me wrote:
less inherent value than original pencil & ink art, it's probably a much rarer thing and so could have some justification for a higher price. |
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Let me clarify this: I'm not saying that THIS particular paste-up is rarer than THE specific art from THIS specific cover. I mean in a general sense, it's probably easier to find comic art for sale than production art for sale from the era. I could be wrong, but basing it on this thread and the general lack of things I've ever seen people talk about as prized acquisitions, I think the paste-up stuff was thought of as unimportant and of no real value by collectors.
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Jason K Fulton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2016 Location: United States Posts: 758
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 7:22pm | IP Logged | 9
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But...comic book art is, by definition, one of one. How can a xerox being rarer than that?
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Jason K Fulton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2016 Location: United States Posts: 758
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | 10
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This kind of feels like an affinity fraud situation.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6426
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 7:37pm | IP Logged | 11
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Malcolm Gladwell's book "BLINK" describes some interesting cases of art forgery where experts were fooled by fakes that had, on close examination, enough credible detail to make the fraud nearly impossible to detect. Technological advancement ended up being key to revealing the fakes.
But, the interesting part was, the experts who were deceived often remember that their first and instantaneous response was to identify the fake as a fake. They had talked themselves out of their initial "first blink" response by letting the accumulated (fraudulent) details outweigh their gut instinct.
In this case, my gut said "fake". But the details are so wildly unexpected --especially the excessive text in the properly executed style of the appropriate letterer and the "DC Novel-length, 100 Page Giant" style composition --I am certainly being led by the accumulated details into disregarding my gut reaction.
I've seen scans of the original art for this cover, but never for the art with cover-dressing or even with the borders of the art-board.
I sure love the art. And I love the original cover to X-Men 137 - ad banner and all!
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Dave Kopperman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3353
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Posted: 08 May 2024 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | 12
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Jason wrote:
But...comic book art is, by definition, one of one. How can a xerox being rarer than that? |
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The math I'm using is of the hundreds of comic pages produced by an artist that would have been saved/collected, versus the smaller number of things like cover paste-ups that were more likely to be discarded. Rarity is about what currently exists, regardless as to whether it was more common at one point. In a way, the general thrust of this thread proves that things like this paste-up are much rarer now and hence have increased in value. There's one consolidated thread given over to every single piece of art any collector would buy - but a full thread dedicated to this historical oddity.
Am I misreading that the lettering is hand drawn on the piece in question? The illustration and other pieces (logo, ad banner) are stats, but the lettering is unique? Obviously if the WHOLE thing is a Xerox then its value is highly overinflated.
Edited by Dave Kopperman on 08 May 2024 at 7:59pm
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