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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 05 June 2024 at 11:56pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I'm posting a New York Times article repost on Yahoo, because the NYT website requires a login or gives limited viewing

If they try this, I'm all for the GOP having to hold fundraisers or take the money out of the RNC treasury to pay when they fail. And it possibly costing them some seats.

(Don't even bother looking at the comments, because it'll be 95% MAGA/conservatives or good old fashioned trolls.)






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John Wickett
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Posted: 06 June 2024 at 3:02am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

·        "The falsifying of the business records was a crime.  The crime was one of the acts used to promote an election - making Trump look better than he was.  The two are linked."

·    James, I agree with all of the above.  But "making Trump look better than he was" is not a crime.  For the falsifying of the business records to rise to the level of a felony, it must be done in the furtherance of another crime



"The prosecution made three arguments -- the second crime was any or all of these: [1] using the hush money as an illegally large donation to Trump's campaign; [2] making additional false business filings, especially bank records of the wire transfer from Cohen to Stormy; and [3] making false statements to tax authorities, since Trump's repaying Cohen was falsely structured as Cohen's income and also falsely "grossed up" by several hundred thousand to cover taxes."

These make more sense.  #3 is probably the one they have the best chance of sticking.


Edited by John Wickett on 06 June 2024 at 3:04am
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 06 June 2024 at 3:51am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

 Matt Hawes wrote:
 I'd bet all of MAGA was behind impeaching Bill Clinton for having consensual sex in the oval office

--

Slight correction, there, but an important one. Clinton's impeachment was over lying under oath about the affair, not the affair itself. And for that distinction, I supported the impeachment, and I still do.

However, if I'm going to say that, then I also have to say that Trump sure as shit deserves his impeachment(S!!!) and criminal investigations.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 06 June 2024 at 5:18am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

John, the relevant part is, as quoted upthread:
two or more persons conspire to promote or prevent the election of any
person to a public office by unlawful means; and the conspiracy is acted
upon by at least one of the parties thereto

Paying Daniels the way he did was a crime.
Therefore the test of the above has been met - two or more people
conspired to promote the election of a person by unlawful means, & @ least
one acted on it.
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 06 June 2024 at 7:20am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

This situation is very similar to the Post Office scandal
here in the U.K. with those in charge trying to use
incompetence as a defence rather than admit wilful
criminality.
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John Wickett
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Posted: 06 June 2024 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

"Paying Daniels the way he did was a crime."

To clarify, paying Daniels was not illegal, even if it was done for the purpose of influencing the perceptions of voters. The crime was that Trump intentionally misclassified the payment to Daniels as a legal fee.

The misclassification is a misdemeanor on its own, and was past the statute of limitations.

Bragg got around the statute of limitations by charging Trump with the felony version, which is falsifying business records in the first degree.  However, in order to qualify as a felony under the statute, Trump must have made the misclassification with the intent to commit another crime, or in the furtherance of another crime.

The "other crime" is a violation of New York state law 17-152 (Conspiracy to Promote or Prevent Election).  So no, "paying Daniels the way he did" does not satisfy the elements on its own.  You still need to find a violation of 17-152.  Any of the three crimes mentioned by Michael Penn above would be sufficient, but some of them would be tough to prove.

For example, if you wanted to prove the payment was an illegally large donation to Trump's campaign, you would need to show the payment was done for the purpose of helping the campaign; not just that the campaign benefitted.  Defense lawyers could argue Trump made the payment to hide the affair from his wife.

Additional false business filings, ie the bank records of the wire transfers might work, but as the transfers are among the payments to Stormy Daniels, they are arguably part of the same set of transactions or occurrences, rather than a separate crime.

The tax charge seems like it would be the easiest to prove, because its very straight forward and you wouldn't have to get into Trump's motives.  However, if damages are a required element (I don't know if they are without having seen the statute the charge is based on), then that could also be challenging because the misclassification inflated Cohen's income, and the taxes on the claimed income were paid.

I'm not saying Trump didn't do anything wrong, or that it would be impossible for Bragg to prove any of these crimes, but there are no slam dunks here either.


Edited by John Wickett on 06 June 2024 at 3:18pm
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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 06 June 2024 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

John Wickett>>I'm not saying Trump didn't do anything wrong, or that it would be impossible for Bragg to prove any of these crimes, but there are no slam dunks here either.<<

The did prove it.  In front of a Jury.  
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 06 June 2024 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

JW: For example, if you wanted to prove the payment was an illegally large
donation to Trump's campaign, you would need to show the payment was
done for the purpose of helping the campaign; not just that the campaign
benefitted

**

Done and done. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, judged by 12 peers on a jury.

There is no daylight down that path. Hope Hicks alone proved this, but she
was backed up over and over.

Appeal is coming, I understand. But what is it with this pretending what
happened did not happen?
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 06 June 2024 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Conrad: "The did prove it.  In front of a Jury."

And did so unanimously.


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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 June 2024 at 6:47pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

But what is it with this pretending whathappened did not happen?

•••

So it is in the Trumpverse.

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Trevor Smith
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Posted: 06 June 2024 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Oh if *only* he was off in his own little pocket universe
somewhere.
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John Wickett
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Posted: 06 June 2024 at 8:54pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

The appeal will be on 6th Amendment grounds.  Attorneys will argue they had no notice of the three potential crimes Trump intended to commit under 17-152, because prosecutors didn't reveal them until their closing arguments.  Theoretically, this prevented Trump's lawyers from being able to mount a defense against those accusations.  That is solid grounds for an appeal.

Also, while the jury instructions required jurors to vote unanimously for guilt, they were allowed to disagree about the illegal means by which Trump intended to violate election laws.  That is potentially problematic.

Finally, if Stormy's detailed testimony about her sexual encounter with Trump is deemed to be more prejudicial than probative, the conviction could be reversed on that basis alone.

"But what is it with this pretending what happened did not happen?"

I'm not.  I just recognize there is a very strong possibility this will be overturned on appeal, which will give Trump another bite at the apple.  So they're going to have to prove it again, which I think always helps the defense, because they've already seen everything the prosecution will throw at them, and they've previewed how a jury is likely to respond to key arguments and pieces of evidence.  The defense is likely to be more effective in a second trial.  On top of that, if the appellate court finds there were problems with the jury instructions, or evidentiary rulings during the first trial, any instructions they give the trial court on remand will favor the defense, and make another conviction more difficult.

"So it is in the Trumpverse."

...except I don't support Trump.  If I had my way, neither he or Biden would be on the ballot.  I agree Trump is unfit to serve as President, but whether he should be president is not the same question as whether I believe these convictions will hold up.





Edited by John Wickett on 06 June 2024 at 8:59pm
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