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        | Todd Hembrough Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 16 April 2004
 Posts: 4171
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          You seem to come into a discussion from 180 degrees opposite from me.  Medical Research vs.  English Liturature.
           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 1 |  |  
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 It is refreshing that you are not fogged by the current atmosphere
pervading academia in the US (and Europe?) of moral relativism, and the
fetishistic worship of nihilism.  (I may have to look those words
up to see if they mean what i mean them to mean).
 
 Todd
 
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        | Darragh Greene Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 16 March 2005
 Location: Ireland
 Posts: 1812
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          Yes, I'm coming out of Eng Lit, but my area of expertise is Medieval English Literature, and the medievals pace Monty Python were supreme rationalists. You have to be a philosopher to read their literature because that's what they were! My PhD thesis, therefore, is interdisciplinary, combining philosophy and literature; that's how I like things!
           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 9:31am | IP Logged | 2 |  |  
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        | Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 28 July 2004
 Location: United States
 Posts: 31698
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          Tishman is still smarter than you two guys.
           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 9:35am | IP Logged | 3 |  |  
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        | Darragh Greene Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 16 March 2005
 Location: Ireland
 Posts: 1812
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          That's just what you think; get your facts straight, Miller!
           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 4 |  |  
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        | Todd Hembrough Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 16 April 2004
 Posts: 4171
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          I have no doubt of that fact Brian.
           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 5 |  |  
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        | Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 28 July 2004
 Location: United States
 Posts: 31698
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          See, Darragh, there's your mistake. There's no such thing as facts. Wow. I'm feeling smarter. Perhaps I'm learning from him.
           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 6 |  |  
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        | Jeremy Nichols Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 02 May 2005
 Location: United States
 Posts: 634
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          Before I speak my views, I want to establish that I side with the
           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 7 |  |  
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 |  majority of posters here in that I agree that opinions can
 definitely be wrong. Usually I'd say this comes from ignorance
 or possibly stubbornness to actually know the truth.
 
 That said, I do disagree with Todd on the question of moral
 relativism "fogging" academia. That implies it's a bad thing, and
 possibly even an incorrect thing.
 
 In my opinion, which granted could be wrong, I think that moral
 relativism is the only way to go. Morals, I believe, are a set of
 values that determine right or wrong. That may not be the
 dictionary definition, but I think that's how most people see
 them. I would break them down into categories: Religion-based
 morals, legal-based, social-based, and individual-based.
 
 Christians have morals that conflict with Muslims, Hindus, and,
 from my experience, usually they conflict most with other
 Christians. So, religiously speaking, morals are relative. To
 one, gambling may be acceptable. To another, exposing the
 forearms may be a path to hell.
 
 Legally, the morals placed on us, the rights and wrongs, are
 decided essentially by whomever is in power at the time. If
 Democrats are in charge, we have Democrat morals imposed.
 If Republicans are in charge, we have Republican morals
 imposed. So there, legally, morals are relative.
 
 Socially, one might say it is in our best interests as a society to
 not kill our neighbors. Or steal from them. It benefits us to work
 together. Personally, I believe these beneficial societal
 concepts are where the whole idea of morality originated. But
 even so, from time to time we find it more beneficial as a society
 to execute someone, or attack another country, etc. So, socially,
 I don't thing any set of Right and Wrong can be 100% defined
 as socially beneficial.
 
 And of course, individually, we all believe different things.
 Some of these -- like whether or not there should be gun
 control -- are entirely opinion based and all facts and data
 supports opinions on either side, but there is no "real" answer.
 "Should there be gun control?" There really is no right or wrong
 answer to that question -- it's different than "Does evolution
 exist?" So, in the individual realm, perhaps even moreso than
 the other 3, morals are definitely relativistic.
 
 This thinking is what has led me to disengage myself from the
 idea of concrete Right and Wrong. Or, I suppose, to become a
 Moral Relativist. But, given my reasoning, I don't think there's
 anything else to be. And in fact, Todd, I think you are a Moral
 Relativist as well... you just don't realise it yet. (And understand,
 all, that's in no way meant mean-spiritedly.)
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        | Darragh Greene Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 16 March 2005
 Location: Ireland
 Posts: 1812
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          Remember, this nonsense isn't confined to the internet; it's everywhere in the arts and humanities! Except certain colleges in Oxford where the dons refused to honour Jacques Derrida, the guru of all deconstructionists and relativists, with an honourary doctorate. Wish they'd given given him a kick in d'arse to boot!
           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 8 |  |  
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        | Eric Kleefeld Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 21 December 2004
 Location: United States
 Posts: 4419
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          Genuine opinions cannot be wrong.  However, people falsely assert opinions
           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 10:01am | IP Logged | 9 |  |  
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 |  as facts or their wrong-headed alleged facts as opinions.
 
 An example of opinion is whether you like JB's art better when he inks it,
 when Terry Austin inks it, or if you hate it no matter what.  That's opinion.
 
 If you say it's your "opinion" that JB's art violates proper notions of anatomy
 and perspective and was obviously rushed, that's not an opinion; it's an
 assertion.  And it would be a wrong assertion.
 
 What we have here is people making assertions meant to carry the weight of
 facts.  Then when being disproved they then make a tactical retreat to
 claiming it as an opinion and thus supposedly unassailable.
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        | Jeremy Nichols Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 02 May 2005
 Location: United States
 Posts: 634
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          Exactly, Eric -- and those are the ones who are behaving
           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 10 |  |  
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 |  foolishly.
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        | Darragh Greene Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 16 March 2005
 Location: Ireland
 Posts: 1812
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           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 11 |  |  
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 |  Jeremy, remember the difference between morals and ethics? You've just argued for ethics, but you haven't understood that morality is precisely a matter of objectively right or wrong actions. So if religions contradict each other concerning moral absolutes, then one or other of them is wrong. In the Western tradition this is why the magesterium of the Roman Catholic Church proclaims itself the teacher of absolute truth concerning moral doctrine. There is no room then for ecumenism on moral matters because it's a matter of absolute truth. The magesterium also concurs with St Thomas Aquinas's dictum: reason does not contradict the divine command; hence there is no room for a double-truth universe of reason and faith. Truth is one, and morality, as a function of truth, is universal and objective. Knowledge of the truth is another matter, however, and so we're back to our little epistemological debate once more; but it is salutary to bear in mind, nevertheless, the difference between ethics and morality. |  
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        | Darragh Greene Byrne Robotics Member
 
  
 Joined: 16 March 2005
 Location: Ireland
 Posts: 1812
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           | Posted: 22 September 2005 at 10:12am | IP Logged | 12 |  |  
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 |  Eric: Genuine opinions cannot be wrong. ************************************************** That is nonsense. Just because your opinion is 'genuine', i.e., not a lie, I presume, that does not entitle you to be right.  You have an opinion, I have an opinion; they contradict each other, so they cannot both be true. One of them is false, one true.  If the opinions are contraries, however, then both cannot be true, but one or both can be false. Either way, opinions, whether contradictory or contrary, cannot all be right except that they break the basic principles of logic, and all debate descends into nonsense.  |  
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