Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 28 Next >>
Topic: Biden’s health (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
ron bailey
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 October 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 1036
Posted: 09 July 2024 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 1  

Trump was elected by White MALE fear. That profile of a voter was going to do anything they could to prevent another "first". Two things people don't like to admit is that Obama never got the majority of white voters in 2008 nor in 2012 (demonstrating that an electoral paradigm shift had taken place), and that Hillary didn't get the majority of the white female vote, which is just criminal in my opinion, especially considering the caricature of boorish, unrepentantly inexperienced behavior her opponent demonstrated.
So to get a qualified, charismatic, inspiring first black president we have to overlook that he is half white, raised overseas by white and asian parents, and has more slaver ancestry than slave (all a hard sell to the initially skeptical African American community), but for a first female candidate that is more qualified than any other, male or female, in recent history, their phrase, "not this female candidate" just goes to show that there is no comparing the two constituencies as folks so casually like to do. They felt that comfortable knowing that before too long another was certainly possible, see Sarah Palin.
My only hope is that Harris has received massive amounts of coaching for how to conduct herself and is just staying out of the spotlight like a good soldier until called upon. You have to reach out to the other side, not just be a celebrity for your own. You think Obama wanted to go bowling out in the middle of nowhere? 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4620
Posted: 09 July 2024 at 8:15pm | IP Logged | 2  

 Casey Sager wrote:
Democrats need to stop burying their heads in the sand and wake up because there is a very real chance that we're going to have a convicted felon as our next President.
I don't think any Democrats (except Joe Biden himself) are burying their heads in the sand.  I think those who support retaining Biden as the nominee do so out of a sincere belief that (despite his obvious, serious flaws) he still has the best chance to defeat Trump out of the available options at this point.

Harris is hardly a slam-dunk winner if nominated.  As has been noted, she'd face the dual attacks of sexism and racism, which Trump is exceptionally adept at harnessing.  Harris is not particularly charming or charismatic (which unfortunately counts even more against women than men).  And she's more liberal than Biden, which isn't helpful in attracting the independent voters in the handful of swing states that get to decide the election.  

And if Harris was passed over in favor of a man or a white person (or both) that would certainly alienate a significant portion of the Democratic coalition, who would turn on that prospective nominee.  Without a series of primaries which would enable them to say "the voters have spoken" it seems pretty much impossible for them to bypass Harris.

So, absent some ridiculous pie-in-the-sky fantasy (like Michelle Obama agreeing to run, or Harris running with Barack Obama as her VP choice) there is not clearcut obvious alternative here.  

If the choice was up to me alone, I'd pick someone else instead of Biden.  But I can see why others disagree with that and still see Biden as the best option.  There is no great option here.  


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 09 July 2024 at 8:20pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4620
Posted: 09 July 2024 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | 3  

 Mark Haslett wrote:
Kamala Harris has proven…**Acknowledging Harris’ general rep as unexciting, she still polls ahead of Biden

Not exactly.  She does better than Biden in some polls, worse in others.  Polling-wise, it seems a wash at this point.  It's hard to know exactly how that would change if she were the nominee and receiving more attention.  She might start to win people over, or in the face of a sustained attack campaign from Trump she might become less popular than she already is. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6426
Posted: 09 July 2024 at 8:25pm | IP Logged | 4  

Every Trump voter is already voting for Trump. He does not persuade and
he will not gain voters. He achieved maximum exposure long ago.

And Niki Haley, a boring woman of color took 15% of his vote away.

Biden has not picked up those votes. He proved at the debate that he (quite
fricking likely) will not pick up those votes

Harris automatically wins every state Biden has locked down.

Pair her with a young, more centrist white male VP and you appeal to the
PERSUADABLE voters. The Niki Haley voters.

Those voters will decide the election, they are begging for a candidate and
are rejecting Biden.

What good does it do to ignore this path to defeating Trump when every
indicator (including my own lying eyes) tells us Biden can’t prosecute
the case against Trump and that he WILL lose?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6426
Posted: 09 July 2024 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | 5  

Jason: It's hard to know exactly how that would change if she were the
nominee

**

2 predictable things:

1. She CAN prosecute the case against Trump (Biden can’t).

2. Changing nominees at this point will bring excitement and attention to
the Dem ticket— stealing thunder from the Trump train.

With those positives unavailable to us now, and Harris already on the ticket,
I cannot convince myself staying with Biden is wise. It is going into battle
wounded and vulnerable behind a legendary figure who everyone can see
faltering. Will he maybe possibly win? Maybe. Possibly. But not likely.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4620
Posted: 09 July 2024 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | 6  

Nikki Haley voters were Republicans who like Republican policy but don't like Trump's narcissism, stupidity, and racism.  Who they vote for in the fall will be determined by which thing is more important to them:  Republican policies or a sane candidate.  I think it's likely a majority of them will choose policy over personality and vote for Trump (as Nikki Haley herself plans to do).  I don't know that Harris would be more appealing to them than Biden.  Sure, she's younger and more articulate, but she's also more liberal.  The swing state voters Democrats need to persuade are independents and moderates.  They are being turned off by Biden's infirmity, but they might also be turned off even more by Harris' perceived liberalism, depending on how effective the Republican machine is at defining her and exploiting her gender/race against her.

According to 538, Harris is stronger than Biden in Nevada but weaker in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania at this point.  Pennsylvania in particular is crucial... I don't know that Dems have a viable electoral scenario without winning it.

Jumping to Harris is a riskier move.  Potentially greater reward but much greater risk.  Like I said, if it was up to me I'd nominate someone other than Biden, but I can understand why some people see it differently.  Given the stakes of this election, I can see why people are risk-averse.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 09 July 2024 at 9:13pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4830
Posted: 09 July 2024 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 7  

Given the stakes of this election the choice should be SIMPLE.

We've already seen how wrong the polls can be (remember the RED WAVE that took place in the 2022 midterms? neither do I.) so why we all UNITE and support Biden AND his great presidential record... and destroy any chance the wannabe dictator/rapist/traitor has... his base isn't getting any bigger.

Then we can all relax and move forward.

-C!
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6426
Posted: 09 July 2024 at 11:31pm | IP Logged | 8  

If Dems go with Biden and lose by a landslide, what will be their excuse?

No one saw it coming?

There is no data to suggest Biden can win. Now is our one chance to switch.
But naw.

So let’s go!

FFS.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4184
Posted: 10 July 2024 at 12:52am | IP Logged | 9  

 Mark Haslett wrote:
Biden has never been leading in the polls. He is behind in the all-important swing states.

When I look at polls like this, I think of all the times a Senate race with an unpopular incumbent looks competitive the entire election season and then the incumbent wins re-election easily when all of the supposedly undecideds jump their way on Election Day.  If the other guy doesn't seem like a step up, best to stick with the guy you have no matter how little you may care for them on the merits.


 QUOTE:
A new candidate— any new candidate— at this moment would easily be the most exciting thing that’s happened in politics in 75 years.

Sure, but I don't consider that a positive.  Trump as a candidate seems to benefit from being ignored.  I don't think it's a good idea to keep him off the radar for an extended period of time while reporters focus on popping out story after story of "Biden's out, but who should be in?" "Is America ready for a female President?", etc., etc.


 QUOTE:
They all poll better than Biden.

Sometimes, but even when they do it's not significantly better (e.g., 47 vice 45).  And that's without the scrutiny and attacks that would come with the nomination (and any negative feelings that would arise amongst the electorate while they were securing it).      


 QUOTE:
It’s time for Biden’s sense of history and the moment to call him to greatness by stepping aside for the good of his party and his nation. This is a great moment of opportunity. It’s a dangerous time to be blindly optimistic.

Publicly, candidates HAVE to be "blindly optimistic".  If Biden was out there saying stuff like "um, well, yeah, I think I'm the best option... I-I guess...  they're-they're all pretty bad..." all the people jumping on him for being "I alone can fix it" would instead be jumping on him for looking "unsure."  In private, who knows what he's thinking?  

As for "sense of history," the most recent example (which to be fair isn't all that recent) of an incumbent dropping out "for the good of the country" was LBJ, and the Democrats LOST that one.  Alternatively, 8 years ago today (per 538) the polls had Clinton at 43% and Trump at 37.5%  So history would say that a) it's not a good idea to drop the incumbent and b) there's plenty of time for things to change between July and November.  

Back to Top profile | search
 
Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4830
Posted: 10 July 2024 at 1:35am | IP Logged | 10  

There is no data to suggest Biden can win. Now is our one chance to switch.
*************
JEEEZZZZZ…. Really??

According to the polls in the UK and France, the right was supposed to win big … until they didn’t. (Correct me if I’m wrong) Le Pen was supposed to be the winner in France too.

People treat polls like they're holy scripture… we really have to ignore all of the fearmongering. That’s the real problem if it persists.

-C!
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6426
Posted: 10 July 2024 at 2:12am | IP Logged | 11  

What do polls in Europe tell us to contradict the dive Biden’s approval took
after he revealed his current state of well being in the debate?

How important is it to win this election? Kind of sort of important or mission
critical?

If one believes, as I do, that Trump will do what he says he’ll do and
transform the executive and judicial branches into Hungarian style
extensions of his corrupt power, then there is no point in kidding ourselves
one iota about the endless and uncontradicted evidence that the swing
voters reject Biden.

Biden will lose and when he does, everyone will look back and say, “.yeah, I
kinda saw that coming.”

Edited by Mark Haslett on 10 July 2024 at 2:13am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
Posted: 10 July 2024 at 2:29am | IP Logged | 12  

Key point to remember:

If Trump wins and, as predicted, unleashes a firestorm of selfish, stupid,
banal policies/edicts which are atrociously fact-free and executed with
hideous incompetence, as per his first term, then the blame falls
squarely upon Trump, his supporters, defenders, apologists, and the
Republican party’s usual gang of idiots.
Not even the teensiest tiniest
Trump hand-sized bit of fault lies with Biden, or the Democrats.

Let’s not play the Republican game of “it’s your fault for not stopping us
from doing something stupid”; that excuse only works if you’re a toddler.

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

<< Prev Page of 28 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login