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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 8:55am | IP Logged | 1
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"But did these companies attract top-level, "name" talent in the way that Image, Dark Horse, IDW, etc. do today? When I was growing up, you rarely if ever saw a John Byrne, Erik Larsen type working for these independent companies. "
Yes, they did. Kirby was with Pacific for a time. First had guys like Chaykin and Grell, Staton and Alan Moore as well as some up and comers like John Ostrander, Mike Baron, Tom Mandrake, Tim Truman, Steve Rude. I think Aragones was with both Pacific and First. You saw a lot of great talent and a few A-listers on occasion.
Did a lot of people jump ship to independents? No. The independents couldn't guarantee a paycheck the way the big two could, so mostly it was because people wanted to do things they didn't think or feel that they would get to do with Marvel or DC. So a lot of the early independent comics , like the early independent movies, were more about what the creators wanted to express than doing what was most commercial. (Not saying people didn't want to make money, just that they weren't aiming for the comics mainstream).
By the Image years, independent comics had begun making money, and it started to make more sense for comic book professionals who didn't want to risk going without a paycheck. Or for creators who just wanted to do mainstream stuff their own way, have some creative control.
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Trevor Giberson Byrne Robotics Chronology

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 1888
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 2
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That makes sense to me, Matt. Anything I suggest would only apply to why I bought so few comics in the 1990s. They are:
* Books I liked got canceled before they had a chance to get going, often in mid-story.
* Marvel and DC's reliance of company-wide event cross-overs, and the general lousy job they were doing taking care of their properties overall.
* The rise of the Image-style artists (particularly Liefeld, Lee, McFarlane and their clones), whose artwork I hated.
* The pain in the ass it was to get to a store that sold comics, compared to just picking them up off every magazine stand in town.
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Trevor Giberson Byrne Robotics Chronology

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 1888
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 3
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**Danger Unlimited, for example.**
Am I mistaken in my belief that DU was intended as limited
series from the start?
Possible, I suppose. Babe and Babe 2 certainly were. It read like an ongoing to me, though. There sure was a lot left unresolved.
Edited by Trevor Giberson on 19 June 2009 at 9:00am
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16619
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 4
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John Byrne wrote:
...So… something that didn't happen -- Marvel Stores -- was a bigger problem than something that did -- Image Comics--?... |
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That was just a part of the whole mess. Marvel's actions with buying Heroes World and making it the sole distributor of their product is what led to DC, Darkhorse, and Image choosing Diamond as the only distributor that could carry their product, which left the third largest distributor, Capital, with the short straw.
I remember clearly calling Capital (I dealt with all three of the biggest distributors when there was three to deal with) about a problem with an invoice back in 1996 only to have a representative answer the phone "Diamond Comics." I thought I had dialed the wrong number! But, no, Diamond had bought Capital, who no longer could compete as a result of what Marvel did, and the other large publishers signing exclusively with Diamond.
Then Marvel couldn't handle its losses and couldn't run Heroes World properly, and so they filed for bankruptcy protection and closed Heroes World, returning and signing an exclusive agreement with Diamond Comic Distributors. This is why we have only one real major distributor to this day.
As far as I understand it, Marvel, DC, Darkhorse, and Image still have exclusive contracts with Diamond.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16619
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 9:01am | IP Logged | 5
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John Mietus wrote:
...Marvel pulling their distribution from the regular channels and becoming their own direct sales distributors, prompting DC and thereby forcing all the other companies (and eventually Marvel themselves when their experiment failed) to sign exclusive distribution contracts with Diamond -- was a bigger problem than something else that happened -- Image's lack of deadline discipline... |
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Yep. As my other posts attest, I have to back John up on this.
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Erik Larsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 344
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 10:30am | IP Logged | 6
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Eric White wrote:
Image already has a history of not delivering the books
the retailers ordered.
++++++++++++
Wasn't it all those Image late books that caused so many comic shops to
go under in the 90's? |
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Not that I'm aware of.
The two events that I know of which did put a lot of stores under
were:
The release of X-Men #1, which stores over-ordered (I think the final tally
was around 7,000,000 ordered) and then discovered that fans weren't so
interested in successive covers on successive weeks. After the success of
Spider-Man #1 and X-Force #1, retailers were not going to get caught
short and they overcompensated. Stores were literally stuck with millions
of these books and it put a decent chunk of struggling stores out of
business.
And...
The Return of Superman. After the phenomenal Death of Superman
retailers were anticipated an equally huge media event (and DC kept
reminding them--"you remember how big the Death of Superman was...")
and retailers didn't want to get caught short. Unfortunately these stores
already had thousands of comics in them featuring a Superman who was
alive. A living Superman was not a novelty. These books were ordered in
huge numbers and they just rotted on the shelves.
Image was something of a roller-coaster ride. Some books would sell out
and retailers, panicking, would up their orders on the next one only to
have it not sell out, which had them cut their orders on the next one
which would sell out and that went back and forth. There was no point
where stores over-ordered by millions but it was hard for them to
accurately predict what any given book might sell. I'm sure it did cause
more than a few headaches but as far as I know it didn't cause the wholesale slaughter that X-Men #1 and the Return of Superman caused.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134818
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 7
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Image already has a history of not delivering the books
the retailers ordered.
++++++++++++
Wasn't it all those Image late books that caused so many comic shops to
go under in the 90's?
==
Not that I'm aware of.
••
Color me stunned.
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Arc Carlton Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 13 April 2009 Location: Peru Posts: 3493
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 8
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Millions of copies of X-Men 1? That kind of number would seem impossible today.
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Ben Mcvay Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 18 June 2006 Posts: 1414
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 9
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I though X-Men #1 sold a 800k to a million copies. Does anyone have the sales chart from back then to confirm?
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Eric White Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 17 October 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1072
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 10
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I don't know how it was in different states but here in Illinois when most of the shops went belly up in the 90's they had tons of Image comics to get rid of. I'm talking 50-100 long boxes of Image comics at each going out of business sale I went to.
Yes, the shops overordered but Image also shipped lots of books extremely late tying up comic shop capital and forcing them to take those books long after the heat was off of them. Return of Superman and X-Men #1 were overordered too..... but they were only two books. Or were there 4 Superman books? Anyway, add all those Image books and the crap Valiant was putting out at the time and you can understand shops going under once the specualtors moved on.
I still buy Savage Dragon, which is probably the only Image book I ever bought other than the KISS book............. and I would have cancelled Trencher too!!
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Lee Painter Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 01 January 2009 Posts: 304
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 11
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I heard Spawn #1 out sold Playboy the month it came out.
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David Webb Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 20 December 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1
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Posted: 19 June 2009 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 12
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