Author |
|
Thanos Kollias Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 June 2004 Location: Greece Posts: 5009
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
Eric, I am pretty sure Matt didn't try to negate your point by his correction. I for one think his correction was just for accuracy. He agreed about Barney, which was the focus of the discussion.
I used to like Rob Liefeld. He was hot before Image, during his New Mutants stint his star rose and then he was given X-Force and then he left. I wasn't twelve, I was about 19 years old and I thought it was an interesting take. Cable became hot in the day purely because of Rob. Of course, a few months later I realized his art had no "feet". It couldn't stand the test of time. I got rid of all my New Mutants and traded them for some Byrne Namor and AWC stuff, which were pretty hard to find over here then, some Blevins New Mutants and the Hulk Marvel Fanfare. Never regreted it, even when the Cable franzy sent the prices through the roof. I never bothered to buy Rob's Image work. His art was even worse there and did nothing for me. Why he remained popular is still a mystery...
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|
Erik Larsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 344
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
Thorsten Brochhaus wrote:
This has very little to do with anything, but I just wanted to admit that I
thought Trencher was a really good book. The art was off the hook and
the scripts were hilarious. Just a fun title, in my opinion, but such a weird
one that I wasn't too surprised when it got canceled.
---
Right. It was hilarious and looked awesome. And I just can shake my head
about it being canceled because the art wasn't what was expected. I
suppose this wouldn't have happen at the "Image Comics" of
today. |
|
|
No. It would not.
It can be a real dilemma though. Imagine--you hire an artist because
they draw one way and when they do the work you hired them to do,
suddenly they decide that's the time to try out something new and
different. I can well imagine the reaction if JB suddenly decided to try out
different styles when doing commissions. He's have a lot more passed
on, I'd imagine, especially if the style he opted for was radically different
from what he'd done in the past.
I liked Trencher but it was a radical departure from what Keith had been
doing and I can understand why others might not be as taken with it.
I hired an artist to draw a book at one point and he decided to not only
take forever to do it--but to draw it in his new "Bruce Timm" style. I really
had no choice but to fire him. The book never saw print and it was no
great loss--he'd only drawn a couple pages and the chances of him
finishing were pretty remote.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Erik Larsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 344
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
Oh--and his new "Bruce Timm" style looked absolutely nothing like Bruce
Timm art. It was just cartoony.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 4:14pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
"Oh--and his new "Bruce Timm" style looked absolutely nothing like Bruce Timm art. It was just cartoony. "
I figured as much. If he really drew like Bruce Timm ... Well, Bruce Timm can adapt his style to pretty much any subject matter. If you hired some regular artist and he turned out that kind of work ... ( I get your point, though).
But I'm curious: When you invited guys like Keith Giffen along, was it just presumed that they would produce work like they'd done before or were there discussions back and forth about what your expectations were. Because Keith Giffen used to play around with his writing and art style a lot, and if he heard "Do whatever you want", I imagine it's like telling a teenager that he can go to a drunken frat party if he promises to behave.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Erik Larsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 344
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
Knut Robert Knutsen wrote:
When you invited guys like Keith Giffen
along, was it just presumed that they would produce work like they'd
done before or were there discussions back and forth about what your
expectations were. Because Keith Giffen used to play around with his
writing and art style a lot, and if he heard "Do whatever you want", I
imagine it's like telling a teenager that he can go to a drunken frat party if
he promises to behave. |
|
|
It was a very loosely run ship to begin with. There was a kind of, "come
one, come all" attitude that was not remotely well thought out. I'm not
even sure who gave Keith the green light to do a book. A lot of it was
guys going, "Hey, you--you're my pal--why don't you come to Image
and do a book?" and not much more forethought was put into it than that.
That was regrettable.
I'm not 100% sure why some books were bounced but I can well imagine
that Todd might not be too pleased having another artist cashing in on
Spawn by doing an issue-long parody of his character.
Some guys were pissed. Keith was okay with it. He got enough money to
buy a house.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Donald Pfeffer Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 14 March 2009 Posts: 194
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
I mean, the first issue of Trencher opened with the title character battling a villain called the Nasal Python, who fights with super strong nose hairs. I can definitely understand if the Image boys looked at that first issue and thought "WTF?!"
But I love it. I still can't get over that artwork. I have no idea how somebody was able to decipher it enough to actually color it. I'd love to see some of the original black and white stuff. I'd love to own the original art for the first issue. It's incredible.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16619
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
Erik wrote:
...
Matt Hawes wrote:
Honestly--who the fuck cares?...
***
Weird Al, for one. | | |
Weird Al isn't here.
|
|
|
Well, I am, and I am a fan of Weird Al's work. Get your facts straight like you tell others to do, cranky.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4075
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
How do you buy a book and then realize
it's crap? Sure, I can see where a really good artist might fool you
into thinking there was a really good writer, too, until you read the
book. But how the heck could anyone look at Liefeld's stuff and think
they were going to get something good? Anyone over the age of 12,
anyway.
I think that there were still enough pre-teens and early teens in the comic-buying audience when Rob Liefeld hit it big that less discriminating taste may have been a factor in his success. As long as audiences were enjoying it at the time, I think that's the main goal of any comic book creator. Liefeld's work may not have aged well, but (good or bad) he was doing something different enough from what audiences were used to seeing that a large number of comic book readers, myself included, were excited by his work and could have cared less that it wasn't drawn as well as a lot of/most Marvel and DC Comics available at the time.
And maybe Rob Liefeld wasn't a great artist. And Pokemon wasn't a great cartoon. And Barney wasn't a great kids' show. And on and on. Who hasn't liked something at some point in the past only to figure out later that it wasn't the highest quality product? There are plenty of comic books that I still love that I know are pretty lousy from an objective viewpoint, but I don't begrudge my 12-year-old self for having bought them.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|
Paul Greer Byrne Robotics Security

Joined: 18 August 2004 Posts: 14192
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
Erik Larsen's reply: ("I said what now? That's completely false. I said that kind of book would be likely the kind we might be allowed to do had we failed at Image and had to return to Marvel. Those books, by the way, were either over or on their way out at the time we would have have come crawling back. the point being--these were not A-list titles.
There was some segue into a discussion in which I suggested that the public perception was that Byrne had to take lesser books after having left Marvel for DC and having come back but at no point did I claim Byrne's anything was "a failure.") ****************************************************
I'll stand corrected. You did not say he came crawling back to Marvel and had to take "third rate" titles. But I'll stand by my claim that you did imply it. You did so by suggesting that if you failed at Image you would be forced to come back and work on lesser titles like others who left Marvel in the "lurch". Then listed three titles JB worked on after coming back from DC as your "proof". But if you say that is not the case I'll drop the discussion of that point.
I do have another question for you Erik. I'm a little confused on how Image was run when it started. I'm talking past Malibu. On one hand you say that you "hired" Keith Giffen. Meaning he was your employee or an employee of Image. Then when he and others were fired you claimed not to be involved. I believe you said you were at a con when they were let-go. Being that there were six partners would you all not have an equal say on who was hired or fired? I also understand that you all kept yourself in your own sub families of Image (Extreme/Top Cow etc.) But common perception (a very popular term in this thread) was that you all ran the company together. For better or for worse you can't be too shocked when people blame the problems of one business partner on the whole. Be it late books, firings, lawsuits etc. On the flip side any and all success would be given to the six of you. I don't see it completely unfair that any and all failures would also be given equal share to the six.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Rick Senger Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9754
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
I still think Liefeld's What If #7 (Wolverine Became An Agent of Shield) is a fun story and cool art. It's from early in his career and I've heard tell that his art was "corrected" by the inker. I don't much like what he later did, but I still like that one.
Edited to add: I bought all the trenchers and I still think they're good fun... don't have much else IMAGE but I still have those.
Edited by Rick Senger on 18 June 2009 at 5:06pm
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
|
Erik Larsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 344
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
Paul Greer wrote:
I do have another question for you Erik. I'm a little
confused on how Image was run when it started. I'm talking past Malibu.
On one hand you say that you "hired" Keith Giffen. Meaning he was your
employee or an employee of Image. Then when he and others were fired
you claimed not to be involved. I believe you said you were at a con when
they were let-go. Being that there were six partners would you all not
have an equal say on who was hired or fired? I also understand that you
all kept yourself in your own sub families of Image (Extreme/Top Cow
etc.) But common perception (a very popular term in this thread) was that
you all ran the company together. For better or for worse you can't be too
shocked when people blame the problems of one business partner on the
whole. Be it late books, firings, lawsuits etc. On the flip side any and all
success would be given to the six of you. I don't see it completely unfair
that any and all failures would also be given equal share to the six.
|
|
|
I don't quite follow but I'll do the best I can.
In some cases here I'm using the words "hired" and "fired" loosely. Keith
was not actually hired by Image. He was not an Image employee. He was
hired by me to plot SuperPatriot and Freak Force--he was hired by Jim
Valentino to do Images of ShadowHawk--he was hired by Rob to plot
some books but he wasn't hired by Image to do Trencher and even when
he did work for me, Jim or Rob he was not an Image employee. Image
employed no writers, artists, editors or creators in that capacity.
Yes--his book was cancelled by a consensus of the other five members
but I was told that they had counted my absentee vote as wanting to KEEP
all of the books in question. I was outvoted without having casted a vote.
But I disagree on the notion of a company or team being bound at the hip
at all times. When a sports team wins the Superbowl all the credit does
not go to one team member. And when a team member gets drunk and
stabs a guy--the whole team doesn't get blamed for the incident. It's
really not that complicated. You can have both and in many ways it makes
sense to have both.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4075
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
But I disagree on the notion of a company or team being bound at the hip
at all times. When a sports team wins the Superbowl all the credit does
not go to one team member. And when a team member gets drunk and
stabs a guy--the whole team doesn't get blamed for the incident. It's
really not that complicated. You can have both and in many ways it makes
sense to have both.
So, what you're saying, is that Jim Valentino got drunk and stabbed a guy?
(That paragraph alone ought to make for another 10 pages' worth of misinterpretation.)
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|