Author |
|
Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 1:43am | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
I can understand the reasons for dumping the other creators, I certainly understood them at the time, and deadline and profitability problems are straight-forward. But the "It turns out we didn't like the books" seems an odd way to react to creator owned books.
I know it's a standard that any regular publisher uses. They don't like a writer or artist's approach on a book they fire him or (in the case of creator owned properties) dump the property.
But in terms of Image being presented of Image as a Creator Friendly alternative where people could publish their own thing, I would think that shy of obscene or brand-polluting work, the personal tastes of the founders would take a back seat?(Once a creator had been invited to publish with them, that is. Certainly I would expect some screening process to take place before someone was taken on board, at which time personal taste objections would be a matter of course.)
I'm just curious. I understand, as you say: it wasn't your call.
And quite frankly I've tried self publishing with some of my friends too (certainly on an infinitely smaller scale), and thinking that you can just start stuff up and then make all the other decisions on the fly is a recipe for confusion and possibly disaster. Some people start making decisions for everybody else that are not the decisions that would have been made if communication was good. Our self-publishing venture for instance involved translated comics as back-ups in an anthology, but instead of handing them over to the guy with a language degree the translation duties were handed over to the only dyslexic in the group.
It looked to me as a fan that Image made a lot of bad mistakes the first years, but from my own experience I can tell that unless everybody involved is a Vulcan, mistakes are going to made in this type of start-up.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Peter Svensson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 30 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1470
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 1:49am | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
Joe, my response wasn't meant to be as sarcastic as it came across.
I am certain that Rob and Jim still had a great love for Marvel comics, and the idea of being given total control over some of the greatest icons in the business must have been incredibly compelling. I can think of very few people in the industry who would turn down the deal that Rob Liefeld and Jim Lee got. Reinvent Captain America, or the Avengers? Modernize Iron Man and the Fantastic Four? Even people who didn't love Marvel Comics would go for it, and I know that Rob and Jim DO love Marvel. (Rob's even done a few Cable issues just because he loves his old character and wanted to see it continue. He cares.)
But the fact is that they must have gotten paid very well to do so as well. Let's face it, they're some of the biggest names in the comics industry, and were busy with projects of their own. They sell books. This is a business, and they are professionals. They don't work for free.
It wasn't an attempt to say that they're greedy, or to denigrate them. I like them. I've met them. They're good people, and I'm not out to say that they're sell outs or the such. Just that at the end of the day, they have to pay the bills. And Heroes Reborn would have made a lot more money than Wildcats or Youngblood, and allowed them to play with Marvel's greatest. Why wouldn't they take the offer?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
|
Erik Larsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 344
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 2:04am | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
John Byrne wrote:
Malibu published the Image imprint and took all the risks. |
|
|
Please--enlighten me on the risks Malibu took. You clearly know
something I don't.
We left well-paying gigs at Marvel with no guarantee of success and no
assurances that we'd have such well-paying gigs made available if we had
to return. I'd just bought a house with my fiancée and I'd put every penny
I had into that. The prospect of doing a book of my own and waiting five
months to get paid was daunting to say the least. I had no safety net. I
had no other source of income. All I had was faith in my own ability and
the hope that this venture would work. Certainly history has shown that
Marvel and DC were quite capable of crushing any company who opposed
them. Dozens of their competitors had been laid to waste over the years.
Malibu had it figured out so that there would be no real risk or financial
burden for them. They would solicit books, get orders and have books
printed with the understanding that the printers would be paid after
they collected money from the distributers. By doing that, there was no
point Malibu was out of pocket anything. This was a small company,
remember, that had published nothing but black and white books. They
couldn't afford to take risks and they made sure that they didn't take
risks.
But clearly--you have access to some information I'm not privy to. Share.
John Byrne wrote:
EL:
John is as bad as any of you-- accusing me of ripping off the
Abomination when I created the Dragon…
••
JB:
Since I did no such thing, I find it very revealing that you think I did!
++
EL:
As for other similarities between Savage Dragon and the Hulk, they both
have super strength and are invulnerable.
••
JB:
…and are green and are male and on the side of the angels. But, in the
end, a more accurate picture might be gotten if at some point, lo these
many years ago, someone asked himself "What if the Abomination was a
goodguy?"
+++
JB:
And this by you is an accusation?
This thread is becomimg a fascinating snapshot of the mangling the
English language can take when some people need words to mean other
than what they mean. |
|
|
You'd make a lousy lawyer, John. Clearly the implication of the words you
typed was that you were accusing me of having ripped off the
Abomination. What other possible interpretation is there? Were you just
exercising your fingers by striking random keys? Was a winged monkey
loose in your office? Why pose the hypothetical question if you felt it had
no validity or merit?
Sure-- I can see why you'd try back-peddling now when your cockamamy
theory was shot full of holes and ridiculed but to argue semantics at this
point is both shameful and ridiculous.
Keith Thomas wrote:
EL He stopped being "X-Men's Paul Smith" and he became a
mere mortal. These days few fans even know who he is.
******
Funny he's doing some upcoming issues of X-men Forever and
from what I've been reading lots of fans are really excited
to see his work again, hardly forgotten. |
|
|
You and they are among those few. The majority of fans don't know who
Paul Smith is or what he's done. Paul stopped drawing the X-Men in
1983-- that's over 25 years ago! That's a long time. The majority also
doesn't know that I ever drew Spider-Man. For a lot of readers-- that's
all ancient history. A lot of readers don't know that John Romita Jr. ever
drew the X-Men or even Daredevil or Iron Man. Don't assume that just
because you know something--that everybody else does.
A number of fans are excited that Paul will be drawing more X-Men. I'm
looking forward to it as well and a mess of fans will get to see his work
for the first time.
The fact remains that when you step off a big book and go to a smaller
one that a lot of readers don't follow. The circulation figures tell us that
much. To a lot of fans at the time, Paul Smith vanished without a trace.
He did some great work after X-Men--some of it at Image, I'll have you
know, but that doesn't mean that his visibility has remained where it was
when he was doing X-Men. To argue otherwise is to ignore reality.
Joe Smith wrote:
Jesus, you come to the JBF and tell his loyal
following that three of their most loved JB runs were
second class dreck, I'm going to defend him to YOU
as well. |
|
|
Talk about misreading between the lines--I didn't say anything remotely
like that.
Joe Smith wrote:
Erik, in all honesty, can you tell us the #1 reason the
Image creators went back for Heroes Reborn? |
|
|
No. I don't know the answer. That deal was not put together with the
knowledge or consent of the other partners.It may have been a love for
the characters or the chance to raise their visibility or for the dough
being offered--I can only guess and I'd rather not do that. There's
enough misinformation floating around there without me adding to it
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Mikael Bergkvist Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 23 April 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1857
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 2:30am | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
As a (sorta) creator myself, knowing how hard it is to make a buck out of it, I cant for the life of me see why everyone goes bananas as soon as someone makes a smart business move, like the Image guys did. Are creators the only ones on this green earth who doesn't have the fundamental right to put food on their plates?
It's almost a religious no-no somehow, to consider bills that has to be paid and a life that has to be built, using ones art to do so.
What are the moral arguments, that states that this is worse than manufactoring weapons, overcharge for AID's medicine in africa or waste taxmoney on a stupid war?
So, these guys made money because they estimated the market correctly, good for them.
By the way, Erik seem to simply state that an artists skill and power and he's 'fame factor' are in no way related. That doesn't mean that JB wont return to the frontrow at any given time, all it takes really, is for him to just go there. I suspect he could do that at any time, in a snap, simply by choice.
But I can also see him having a ball with Star Trek, considering tha fact that he has been a self proclaimed fan of Star Trek all his life. I think most artists would love to be in the awesome position to be able to take some time in their lives doing this sort of stuff, just because they can and just because they have fun with it.
I'd kill for that privilege.
My point is that the true sign of JB's status in the BIZ is the fact that he can DO these things BY CHOICE.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|
Simon Bowland Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: England Posts: 385
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 5:16am | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
Sure-- I can see why you'd try back-peddling now when your cockamamy
theory was shot full of holes and ridiculed but to argue semantics at this
point is both shameful and ridiculous.
That pretty much sums up your remark, Erik, about Savage Dragon outselling a number of Marvel, DC, Dark Horse and IDW books. A statement you made which you still seem unable or unwilling to clarify. You and I both know you can't clarify said statement because it's simply not true. Which leads me to wonder why you said it in the first place, if it's not true?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134761
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 5:32am | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
As a (sorta) creator myself, knowing how hard it is to make a buck out of it, I cant for the life of me see why everyone goes bananas as soon as someone makes a smart business move, like the Image guys did.Are creators the only ones on this green earth who doesn't have the fundamental right to put food on their plates?•• That is not at all what happened with Image. In fact, at the time, when Image happened there was much rejoicing. Creators loved the idea. Fans loved the idea. Retailers loved the idea. Unfortunately, it didn't take very long for Image to show its true colors, with books that were mostly thin shadows of what they did at Marvel, missed deadlines, and abuse of other creators and the system itself.* And that's what people eventually started to go "bananas" about. Sad to think, after all these years, that there might still be some who cling to the myth of Image.
* They also developed an astonishing duality when it came to dealing with complaints. Selling themselves, they were a team -- Workers of the World Unite! But when deadlines were missed, when work was shoddy, when other excesses manifest, suddenly they broke into a million shards. "Oh, that's just him!"
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Jesus Garcia Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 10 April 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 2414
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 5:48am | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
Joe Smith
just because we're on page 32 doesn't mean page 31 ceases
to exist, Jesus.
I'm just saying in my above thread, you come here and
stir up shit, you're going to get hit with some corn.
Spin that into a hissy fit, please.
Nobody throws hissy fits like YOU do, Joe.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134761
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 5:52am | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Erik as a massive nova fan.......your run on a "B" book like nova was horrendous it took ten years to bring him back after that disasterJB took books and made them his own the run on she-hulk was innovative and his namor was original and fun....i have nothing against Erik but the facts are facts!! •• Yes, they are. But unfortunately, Robert, what you are stating there are opinions, not facts.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Greg Woronchak Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 September 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 1631
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
The majority of fans don't know who Paul Smith is or what he's done.
I dunno, I have a feeling that many of the comic book consumers still lingering are old farts who have been collecting since the 80s. Folk with disposable income who can afford today's over-priced, slickly produced pamphlets.
I'm not sure that leaving a high-profile title instantly reduces the sheen of a 'star' artist, wouldn't a loyal fan base stick with him/her regardless? I think that if Paul would have decided to maintain a steady presence in comics, he would've continued to sell books based on his talent.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
|
Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 7:35am | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
QUOTE:
Erik as a massive nova fan.......your run on a "B"
book like nova was horrendous it took ten years to bring him back after
that disaster |
|
|
What exactly wasa wrong with his run on Nova. I followed the series in its short run and enjoyed it. I think its closer in tone to the 70s Nova series than the Nicieza run or the current series.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Robert Walsh Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 24 July 2008 Posts: 456
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
I dunno, I have a feeling that many of the comic book consumers still
lingering are old farts who have been collecting since the 80s. Folk
with disposable income who can afford today's over-priced, slickly
produced pamphlets.
* * * * *
I see a lot of 20-somethings in the graphic novel section at Borders and Newbury Comics, the two places I shop. I'm pushing 40 and I'm usually the oldest one there.
It skews far younger if I count the manga section.
I know you guys love to run around crying that the sky is falling, and maybe the future of the Spider-Man comic isn't bright (I don't know and frankly don't care), but there seem to be a fair number of kids and young adults discovering comics via other paths. The comic industry doesn't seem to be nearly as screwed up as the magazine industry.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
|
Posted: 18 June 2009 at 8:10am | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
The younger audience are certainly paying attention to Manga. I don't think the comic industry has anything to applaud themselves about if they're losing their audience to foreign competitors.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
|
|
|