Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 117 Next >>
Topic: Growing Roses and Meeting Deadlines (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Thanos Kollias
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2004
Location: Greece
Posts: 5009
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 2:38am | IP Logged | 1  

I think it's fair to say that there is no superhero created or that appeared after the 80s that is unique and completely original. They all have something that was there before them.
Under this light, I would like to make a distinction between Savage Dragon and the Next Men: I understand Next Men have their basis on X-Men (five young people with growing powers, name sounding similar) and Superman (their powers are basically Superman's divided between 5 people: strength, invulnerability, speed, jumping, vision) but that's just about it.
The little I have seen of Savage Dragon, though, just screams HULK way too loudly to ignore. I am not talking about behavior, character or whatever, I am talking first glimpse, what flavor stays with you once you have looked at him.
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
John Farnham
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 March 2009
Posts: 300
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 3:26am | IP Logged | 2  

So, seriously, I think I missed something all those years ago.

What was the big deal and all the venom and hatred about a few big names leaving Marvel and DC and going off to do their own thing?  Honestly, I missed something since I was happy to try out Jim Lee on Wildcats and Silvestri of some other lame book.  I didn't get into the titles and quickly stopped buying them.

I remember John Byrne doing something similar shortly after.  He left DC and Marvel and did his own creator owned title(s) Next Men etal, but he did it under an existing comic company at Dark Horse.  Frank Miller went there with Byrne, too, right?  I liked Next Men, so I kept buying it until it ended and I was told to be patient that it would return................hey it has, in reprints at IDW - yay !!  Savage Dragon has been continually published for 150 issues.  That might be unfair since I don't know the ins and outs of the finances of comic publishing, but on the surface, it sure seems like creator owned Savage Dragon sure seems more fan friendly than creator owned Next Men was.

Is the big deal here that a new company was formed - ie Image - and that this team of creators were sneaky about it or something? Did they poach other talent to start the company?  Is that the problem whereas guys like Byrne and Miller just took themselves and did their own thing solo?  If so, kudos to the intergity of Byrne and Miller, but I don't slight the other guys for taking advantage of a unique time in the comic book industry.

Creator owned books are so common place now.  What's the big deal from 15 or 20 years ago?  Some are successful and some are not.  Some fail by issue # 3 some fail by issue # 30, some continue to reach their niche audience continually for 150 issues.

Hasn't every artist who left Marvel and DC to do their own creator title been accepted back by Marvel or DC or both in the interviening years ?  Some creators have continued to ride the wave of their success and have become the talent behind the new image of key characters like Batman, others have seen their sales slump to dismal numbers and cling desperately to any form of fame they can muster (youngblood, etc.)

So....can someone explain to me what the big deal WAS and IS about Image?  Why the hatred?  I just don't get it.





Back to Top profile | search
 
Glenn Brown
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3095
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 3:48am | IP Logged | 3  

Money.  Some guys who were in the right place at the right time and knew the right people literally became millionaires overnight, and then the golden goose died just as quickly...boom/bust cycle, speculators almost killed the industry.  "Image" has become the buzzword for everything wrong about the comic industry at that time but at the end of the day, pretty much everyone who had the opportunity to make ridiculous money back then was doing so.  That's the name of the game.  Don't get caught up in all of the tales of guys doing it "for the love," "for the fans."  They're doing it for the same reasons everyone else gets up and does whatever they do - to make a living and secure their futures.  I spoke with a Big Name Artist back then who was very critical of Image, who had secured a creator-owned deal with another publisher and openly bragged to me about how much he was earning from a concept that has been criticized as being as derivative as the Image comics he mocked and denigrated.  So everyone was trying to get their piece of the financial pie back then and I think some folks were jealous/envious/resentful of the success of original Image creators based upon what some considered to be bad comics and worse business practices. 

To be fair, many things about Image made it easy to hate them at the time...that was a long time ago though to hold onto the hatred.



Edited by Glenn Brown on 11 June 2009 at 3:51am
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133577
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 4:08am | IP Logged | 4  

What was the big deal and all the venom and hatred about a few big names leaving Marvel and DC and going off to do their own thing? Honestly, I missed something since I was happy to try out Jim Lee on Wildcats and Silvestri of some other lame book. I didn't get into the titles and quickly stopped buying them.

I remember John Byrne doing something similar shortly after. He left DC and Marvel and did his own creator owned title(s) Next Men etal, but he did it under an existing comic company at Dark Horse.

••

Two points: I created NEXT MEN at Dark Horse before the Image boys left Marvel, and (dear God how many times must this be repeated??) Image began as an imprint at Malibu, not as an independent company.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve D Swanson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 May 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1374
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 4:08am | IP Logged | 5  

John Farnham, most of the stuff aimed at Image's business practices that I have heard about seem actually more to do with Rob Leifeld's business practices at the time.

He'd create a book, launch it with his name on it so it would sell but have inferior artwork (Leifeld may not have been a good artist but the guys working under him were really not good), subsequent issues would be late but the retailers would be on the hook for them (as in they had to keep those late books in mind for their budget so theoretically couldn't spend that budget on other books), released title after title to capitalize on the speculators who'd pick up anything with a number one, and made a boatload of cash in a way that was detrimental to the overall business of comics (hurt the retailers, hurt the fans, hurt the other companies). And then you add in that a lot of people genuinely didn't like the man (for good and bad reasons) and through that it created an image of Image that wasn't true for all of the seven (though others did some things as well).

My little brother was a huge Liefeld fan, and was excited every time a new Image Liefeld comic was announced. Then he'd read it and kind of like it but not really. Then he looked around and realized all of the Liefeld Image comics he was buying pretty much blew chunks and one day he just stopped buying comics. I think that happened to a fair number of people in the nineties. People have called it a speculator crisis (where all the speculators left at once) but I also think there was a reader crisis when a lot of people just realized a lot of their comics (Image, DC and Marvel were all chasing the speculators and all producing some crap) weren't worth reading.

As for the other people in Image. MacFarlane did a book that he wanted to do, while not something I liked (or to be honest even understand what the hell was going on and why the hell I should care), it sold well and people seemed to like it. The reason people have a problem with MacFarlane seems to be more of a personality conflict than anything else; big mouth with a big ego (I personally find guys like that funny and fun to be around but others have a problem with it). Nobody seems to dislike Jim Lee too much, but Wildcats just wasn't very good, same with Silvestri's Cyberforce. Erik Larsen's Savage Dragon has been one of the best comic books produced in the last seventeen years. But um..., and I say this with affection, Erik can be a little prickly and agressive at times.

The Wizard hype machine didn't help (being told something is awesome when it isn't can wear people out), Image's clearing out of the second wave seemed strange to me (though it seems like they came to understand it was a mistake and the company as it is now might not have been formed without making that mistake and trying to correct it).

Basically they made mistakes that hurt the industry, but they were young guys trying to do their own thing and learning on the job. Nothing wrong with that.

If they'd just said; we want to own our own creations and work for ourselves, earning whatever our names, talent and creativity allow us to make, that would have been fine. I think it was the rhetoric that blatantly contradicted some of their actions that got people angry at them.

But it lingers, even with a guy like me who didn't buy those early crappy Image comics (I read my brother's), I still only buy one Image comic on a regular basis and while I've sampled a few here and there I find myself almost reading it looking for the same flaws I saw back then (nice art, incomprehensible stories, no reason for the comic to exist because it has nothing to say) and they need to be better than an equivalent Marvel or DC comic for me not to find those flaws (because unfortunately if you look hard enough you can find flaws in everything).

In other words, for me Image still has to overcome my preconceptions even though intellectually I know those flaws are no longer as prevalent as they once were and there are quite a few comics that I might like. And honestly might be buying if they were under a different brand name.

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133577
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 4:19am | IP Logged | 6  

As Frank Miller put it, Marvel did so much great stuff in their first few years
they were able to coast for the next forty -- Image did so much crap
(content- and business-wise) in their first few years they would have to
spend forty years producing the best comics out there just to make up for it.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133577
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 4:20am | IP Logged | 7  

…I'm not sure when Hulk came out.

••

Your connection to the Internet only allows you to come here?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 4:24am | IP Logged | 8  

I think the Name Withheld letter pissed off a lot of people, too. It was seen (somewhat unfairly perhaps) as basically slamming every writer in the industry as expendable hacks that had nothing to do with the success of any given book. Oh and the Peter David - Todd Mcfarlane debate. Man, it was like watching Mike Tyson beat up a 5-year old and steal his candy. I'm telling you, the comics industry in the early nineties was a damn warzone.

Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133577
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 4:25am | IP Logged | 9  

I think the Name Withheld letter pissed off a lot of people, too.

••

Do you have any idea how many people thought "Name Withheld" was me? I wrote so many letters to CBG I practically had a weekly column, and in none of those letters was I the least bit shy about sharing my opinions (much like in this Forum), yet that cowardly piece of crap appeared (and multiple shame on Don and Maggie Thompson for publishing it!) and just about everyone assumed I had written it.

++

Oh and the Peter David - Todd Mcfarlane debate. Man, it was like watching Mike Tyson beat up a 5-year old and steal his candy.

••

If the 5 year old had challenged Tyson (but even then, not a great analogy).

A Fun Fact about that debate -- after the Toddler had his head handed to him by David, he had his "people" get in touch with me to see if / wanted to "debate" him. My response: I said I didn't recall anything about the McFarlane/David debate that stated John Byrne gets to debate the loser.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 4:32am | IP Logged | 10  

Well, hyperbole. Not an even fight, was my point. McFarlane is smart, but he's not word smart.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Simon Bowland
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: England
Posts: 385
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 4:39am | IP Logged | 11  

Erik, sorry but you do spout some complete nonsense a lot of the time.

Bankroll my ass--we were paid NOTHING up front by Malibu. They took
ZERO risks-- they took on the most popular creators in the industry...

Make that "some of the most popular creators". Jim, Todd, Rob - yes, at the time, I'd agree. You could also argue that Marc was very popular at the time as well, because this was before he'd morphed his art style into the Image house style (throw a lot of pointless sketch lines at the art to make it "detailed"). But with the greatest of respect to Whilce, was he a true top star at that point? Was Jim V? And besides doing a fairly average job of tracing Todd's work, what had you done which had really set the world alight? Be honest now.

...most likely we'd be stuck on a third tier book like Namor, She-Hulk or the West Coast Avengers--you know, the types of books they give to guys who left them in the lurch.

I'd say "second tier", but when those books were handed to JB, they could no longer be classed as such. And who left whom in the lurch? When John signed up for DC's Superman, he had (as I understand it) every intention of continuing to work for Marvel. But Jim Shooter had a tantrum and spat his dummy. How is that the same as what you guys did at Marvel? Marvel even launched brand new titles for some of the Image kids, allowed them to write their own books when the most they should even have written were their names (Todd).

For a period of three to four years on a book to book basic--we kicked their ass.

How's that working out for you now? Spawn is only back selling in the 20k numbers since Todd's "return" last year. I don't see your book selling higher than 10k, except when you slap some presidential bloke on the cover. And even then, another publisher "kicked [your] ass".

Page rates shot through the roof after we left.

Is that always a good thing? At one point, publishers were offering the top letterers in excess of $80 per page for lettering. God only knows what the rates were for pencilling and inking. That's a ridiculous amount of money to be paying someone, it's not sustainable in the long-term. There's only one sure-fire way to cover increased page rates: increased cover prices. Nice one.

Wrong. Todd is not and was not a fan of Lim's work.

No, I can see why. A talented storyteller, hits his deadlines, isn't lazy. Ron just isn't Todd's kind of guy, is he?

And the reason Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld were given the books they were given was because of their success at Image.

Define "success". Youngblood was a bad, bad comic and it shipped about as frequently as a solar eclipse. Wildcats, or WildC.A.T.S. or whatever, had nice artwork and a below-par script. And it shipped only slightly more frequently than a solar eclipse. Is that "success"? Or is it making a lot of money off the back of Marvel, because you guys were only popular from the work you did using their properties.

And all this talk of who ripped off what--give it a rest.

Right. So Spawn's eyes bore no resemblance to Spider-Man's? Youngblood bore no resemblance to X-Force? Wildcats bore no resemblance to X-Men? PITT bore no resemblance to Hulk? CyberForce bore no resemblance to X-Men? Hello, did you ever look through any of these books?

As for Heroes Reborn, it was one of the biggest mistakes Marvel ever made. And lo and behold, they suffered from scheduling problems. What was the common denominator? Yep, the Image guys. The unprofessional Image guys. "Deadlines? Pah, they don't mean a thing."

It's funny, Erik, how you keep making reference to JB and his career in comics. The fact of the matter is, he's never missed a deadline and his books have never shipped late (as a direct result of him missing a deadline). Most of the time, he's been producing two books every single month. How many of the Image boys can say that? You guys all forged reputations for blowing deadlines - not just by the occasional week - and back when you were all popular, you let your fans down big time with the total disregard for your profession. The worst thing John has done is to move on from one title to another, usually when he's run out of stories to tell. And the fact that upsets people, just shows that he's been doing his job right.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Luca Tavan
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 March 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 50
Posted: 11 June 2009 at 4:56am | IP Logged | 12  

Make that "some of the most popular creators". Jim, Todd, Rob - yes, at the time, I'd
agree. You could also argue that Marc was very popular at the time as well, because
this was before he'd morphed his art style into the Image house style (throw a lot of
pointless sketch lines at the art to make it "detailed"). But with the greatest of
respect to Whilce, was he a true top star at that point? Was Jim V? And besides doing
a fairly average job of tracing Todd's work, what had you done which had really set
the world alight? Be honest now.

--------------------------------------------------------

Okay, now you are pretty plainly being a dick. Have you ever looked at a page of
Erik Larsen's art? Whatever your opinion is of it, it bears very little resemblance to
Mcfarlane. Do you not consider 150 issues of a fantastic title (which he created) an achievement?

Edited by Luca Tavan on 11 June 2009 at 5:02am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

<< Prev Page of 117 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login