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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | 1
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Troy Nunis wrote:
>>I believe he said something to the effect that he HAD to have the
"three L's" (Liefeld, Lee, Larsen).<<
the three L's were Liefeld, Lee and LIM - McFarlane had particular praise
of Ron Lim, who he said he thought would be the biggest of the three
since Lim could produce more than one book a month maintaining higher
visiability, doing monthly work seemingly more important than growing
roses in Todd's eyes then. |
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Wrong. Todd is not and was not a fan of Lim's work.
But "going after the three L's" didn't require a lot of arm twisting on
Todd's part--both Rob and I were committed to Image prior to him
coming onboard.
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Lee Painter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 January 2009
Posts: 304
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 10:34pm | IP Logged | 2
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wasn't the Savage Dragon created by Erik Larsen when he was a kid. I'm not sure how old he is, but he's definitely been around for a while (no offense EL) so I think it's a bit unfair to call the Savage Dragon a Hulk rip off.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 10:44pm | IP Logged | 3
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What, there was no Hulk when Erik Larsen was a kid? Not saying that Dragon is necessarily a Hulk rip-off, but saying he can't be because EL came up with the character when he was a kid makes no sense. In terms of character he's certainly quite different from Hulk, but if the look is influenced by the Hulk it could just as easily have happened when Erik was a kid as when he was grown-up. More easily, I'd say. Kids learn by copying.
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Joe Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6674
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 11:02pm | IP Logged | 4
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I was as crushed when Garney's first run of Captain America
was halted as I have ever been when a creative run has
stopped.
I feel, looking back, that it also stunted the head of
steam Ron had been gathering.
All for a stupid publicity stunt, and the WORST issues of
Captain America EVER PRODUCED.
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Lee Painter
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Joined: 01 January 2009
Posts: 304
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | 5
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What, there was no Hulk when Erik Larsen was a kid?
I don't know how old EL is, and I'm not sure when Hulk came out. I've only been around since the late 80's. Just thought I'd put that out there.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 11:11pm | IP Logged | 6
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Hulk's been around for about 57 years, Lee. I think he's somewhat older than EL.
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Mike Howell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 August 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 528
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 11:19pm | IP Logged | 7
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I don't know how old EL is, and I'm not sure when Hulk came out.
------
Hulk debuted in Incredible Hulk #1 May 1962
Erik debuted in Minnesota, December 1962
It sounds like this deal went on behind closed doors with the higher-ups at Marvel, without the knowledge of the then-current creative teams. I could be getting the details entirely wrong, though, but that was the impression I had at the time.
-----
I've recently read an interview with Mark Waid that matches the impression you had. Mark said that the deal with Liefeld was signed before Waid/Garney's first issue came out and that he only found out about the deal half way into the run through the rumour mill. Then one of the reasons they could come back after Heroes Reborn was that Marvel had new higher ups.
Edited by Mike Howell on 10 June 2009 at 11:26pm
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Peter Svensson
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Joined: 30 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 1470
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | 8
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Savage Dragon may share some basic visual similarities with other characters, but he really is a unique character of his own. Trying to say that the Dragon is reminiscent of the Hulk is like saying that Hellboy is just a grown up Hot Stuff. Possibly accurate, but misses the point.
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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | 9
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Jason Mark Hickok wrote:
Erik- Just curious on what books that you,
Silvestri, Lee, Valentino, Portacio, Liefeld worked on when you worked for
Marvel again? I don't remember it being "second rate" books. Even
though to be honest the most "b-list" character can be great depending
who works on it. |
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You seem a bit confused. My point was not that we worked on
second rate books but rather that if we came crawling back on our hands
and knees that the a-list books we were doing would not magically be
vacated.
She-Hulk, the West Coast Avengers and Namor were not and are not A-
list books. They may very well be the books John wanted to do-- but
given that all three were eventually canceled and both the Incredible Hulk
and Fantastic Four were not--it's pretty obvious that they were a step
down from the titles he had left when he went to DC.
And the reason Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld were given the books they were
given was because of their success at Image. Had their numbers at Image
been lousy, I doubt the seas would have parted for them they way they
did.
John Byrne wrote:
As for other similarities between Savage Dragon and the Hulk, they both
have super strength and are invulnerable.
••
…and are green and are male and on the side of the angels. But, in the
end, a more accurate picture might be gotten if at some point, lo these
many years ago, someone asked himself "What if the Abomination was a
goodguy?" |
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It's a good thing you threw that "might" in there because that is the
stupidest, most ill-informed and inaccurate piece of guesswork I've ever
read in my life in regard to the genesis of the Savage Dragon. As much as
he looks like the Hulk (and he looks very little like the Hulk) the Dragon
looks considerably LESS like the Abomination.
I've heard "Triton" I've heard "the Hulk" I've heard he's a "green-skinned
Wolverine" and "Martian Manhunter with a fin" but considering the fact
that he has nearly as much body hair as the Beast and the rugged good
looks of a movie star--the Abomination is about as poor a guess as one
can make with a straight face.
The real answer is: Batman.
That fin was, at one point, attached to a cowl that the Dragon wore. I
created him as a kid and eventually I got tired of drawing that costume
with the utility belt and the gloves with the serrated edges and I just
made the fin part of his head. You can feel free to call him a Batman
knockoff if you'd like but you're likely to provoke louder guffaws than
your Abomination guess would receive.
I created the Dragon in 4th grade--in 1972-- about a year before I
started buying comics. We had my Dad's comics around but he didn't buy
the Hulk (he stopped buying comics when EC folded) he did, however,
have several issues of Batman. Needless to say, Dick Sprang was an early
influence.
John Byrne wrote:
As I understand it, (and this was from Bob Harras about 10 years ago) the
Heroes Reborn contracts that Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld got were inked
before the first issue of Waid and Garney's Cap run, saw print. 'Course it's
seemed a little suspicious that Waid and Garney got about a years worth
of work out before being forced off the title. But then again, it does take
time to grow them roses.
••
Ron Garney and I used to chat a lot back in those days, and he was
certainly surprised when CAPTAIN AMERICA was taken from him. If this
was something in the works for a year, you'd think he might have been
told. |
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By Bob Harras? Are you kidding me? Has this man ever been forthright
about anything? The fact that Ron was never told does not surprise me in
the slightest.
From everything I have heard-- the Heroes Reborn plan was in the works
for quite some time before it was announced. They had quite a bit of lead
time when the books finally came out which is why the first issues were
longer than usual.
Brian Miller wrote:
Erik Larsen wrote:
they took on the most popular creators in the industry
There's no way Jim Valentino was one of the most popular creators in the
industry. |
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I didn't say that's all they took. You're right, of course, Guardians of
the Galaxy had its most successful run ever with Valentino at the helm
but he was not one of the most popular creators in the industry
unless that list was expanded quite a bit.
And all this talk of who ripped off what--give it a rest.
Hawkeye was a rip-off of Green Arrow who was a rip off of Batman who
was a rip off of a character called the Bat from the pulps. The Hulk was a
rip off of Mr. Hyde and nearly every Marvel hero has an analogous
counterpart elsewhere. So what? The Wildcats didn't act like the X-Man,
the Savage Dragon didn't act like Batman, the Hulk, Triton, Wolverine,
Martian Manhunter or--uh--the Abomination.
The reality is that most characters are not created in a vacuum. Most
spring from something and somewhere. How many guesses were there in
regard to John Byrne's Next Men? I heard quite a few and John's vehement
denials "I've never seen the DNAgents" or whatever-- but every member
was a common archetype-- a speedster, a strong guy, etc., etc. It was
the handling of those archetypes which made Next Men unique. If one is
to boil it down to powers and visuals-- John Byrne's Next Men seem
incredibly derivative. But everybody here seems to grasp that John made
them unique but can't seem to grasp that the same could be said of most
Image characters (and I say "most" because we have an occasional
"Hyperion" or "Gladiator" in the mix--characters which are very obviously
based on an existing character as an homage or wacky send up).
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Keith Thomas
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 3082
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| Posted: 11 June 2009 at 12:03am | IP Logged | 10
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Whatever your characterization comics are a visual medium
and I'm sorry I never read your Savage Dragon Mr Larson,
but I have to admit when I saw it on the stands when it
first came out I took one look at it,and thought Hulk rip-
off with a fin on his head-not interested.
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Luca Tavan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 March 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 50
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| Posted: 11 June 2009 at 12:54am | IP Logged | 11
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Whatever your characterization comics are a visual medium
and I'm sorry I never read your Savage Dragon Mr Larson,
but I have to admit when I saw it on the stands when it
first came out I took one look at it,and thought Hulk rip-
off with a fin on his head-not interested.
--------------------------------------------------------
You come off pretty arrogant there buddy. What if nobody had ever read
Watchmen because they look "too much like those old Charlton
characters"? or The Fantastic Four because "It's just Kirby doing
Challenger's of the Unknown again"?
I can say with absolute confidence that the similarities between Hulk and
Savage Dragon end at their physical appearance and basic power. Even
then, calling them similar is a stretch. About as close as say, Kamandi and
Peter Parker.
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Luca Tavan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 March 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 50
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| Posted: 11 June 2009 at 2:08am | IP Logged | 12
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Spawn is an amalgamation of Devil Slayer,Cloak,Venom (which Todd did
not create),the Danny Ketch Ghost Rider,Moon Knight,and the Spectre.
----------------------------------------------------
I am not at all a fan of Spawn, but I am going to have to dispute this in
the interest of common sense. Nearly every individual feature of any new
character has been used before. Think of how many characters have been
created over the years. So of course with any reasonably recent character
like Spawn, a lot of the ideas used will have been used in previous
characters. It does not mean that the character was created with those
things in mind
And saying Savage Dragon's police status is borrowed from the original
human torch is beyond ridiculous. Having a superhero as a law enforcer is
a logical device, and not nearly unique enough to warrant such
accusations.
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Topic Closed)
