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Simon Bowland
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: England
Posts: 385
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| Posted: 09 June 2009 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 1
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Editors can do the same these days, and they do. There's an awful lot of Marvel books, for example, which have rotating art teams and I'd say the majority of the line ships on time. It's just that the books which ship late are flagged up, and the books which ship on time never warrant a mention.
The whole "early days of Image" is a really interesting subject to discuss. Here we had seven talented artists who basically thought they were above everyone else. They didn't need writers! They didn't need editors! They didn't need work-for-hire! They didn't even need the major publishers! And yet... Todd subsequently worked for DC. Erik worked for Marvel and DC. Rob worked for Marvel and DC. Whilce worked for DC. Jim Lee sold out to DC. Marc worked for Marvel. I think only Jim Valentino - the only guy out of the original seven who actually had talent as a writer - stayed true to his intentions, and unfortunately his books didn't sustain enough of an audience.
I guess in a way it's kind of like dumping your girlfriend because you're certain you can bag someone better, only to go back to her with your tail between your legs when you realise down the line that she was the best you could ever get.
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Joe Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6674
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| Posted: 09 June 2009 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | 2
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This is not analogous to the Joker and Batman--it's
akin to the Wrath from BATMAN SPECIAL #1 “...The Player
on the Other Side!” (a one-shot from 1984, story by Mike
W. Barr, art by Michael Golden and Mike DeCarlo)--
anybody remember that one?
one of my favorite comics ever, and MINE has a double
cover!!
Edited by Joe Smith on 09 June 2009 at 6:59pm
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Keith Thomas
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 3082
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| Posted: 09 June 2009 at 7:23pm | IP Logged | 3
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I think Art Adams maintained an even higher profile by
not working on a single monthly book
He dropped way down on my list of favorites when I realized
he was only a "specialty" guy. Why wait endlessly for a
once a year Annual by Art Adams when I can get 17 issues
and a special edition book from Alan Davis on Excalibur
over 2 years. I even remember AA doing the second one shot
for Excalibur "Mojo Mayhem" and thinking it was crap by
comparison to Alan's monthly stuff.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133571
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| Posted: 09 June 2009 at 7:31pm | IP Logged | 4
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Here we had seven talented artists ...
••
Well, maybe three.
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16505
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| Posted: 09 June 2009 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | 5
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Erik Larsen wrote:
| ...Todd got pretty burned out doing comics--at one point he had pencilled 120 pages in a single month (it was during DC's Invasion--each of those issues were 80-pages long... |
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Just for clarity's sake, Todd didn't draw all those issues. Bart Sears did an issue.
Erik wrote:
...(Todd) has been the title's creative force since day
one and these days he's back to writing and inking the title... |
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Those digital inks... Is he just darkening the pencils in Photoshop? I'm not being snarky, I am sincerely curious. It doesn't look like his style, inking or pencils.
BTW, about the Wraith from "Batman Special" #1 (mentioned in another post by Erik), the character has appeared again since then in recent issues of "Batman Confidential."
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2217
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| Posted: 09 June 2009 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | 6
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I recall reading an interviews with Gaiman back in the 90's where he complained about Marvel and vowed never to work for them again because Marvel didn't want to pay the page rate for the artist that Gaiman originally had chosen to draw the Alice Cooper book. I recall Gaiman calling Marvel a penny pinching cheap company (or something like that) and said that he hoped Image would take away all of their business. Gaiman also praised Todd Mcfarlan and the rest of Image in that same interview. Now that's what I call irony.
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Jesus Garcia
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2414
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| Posted: 09 June 2009 at 9:31pm | IP Logged | 7
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Isn't a great part of the problem that late books still find their target
audience? A store pre-orders on a non-returnable basis and when the
books arrive, the books get sorted out in pull lists and customer's get a
call to show up and pick up their books. That's how it work at my CBS: all
over the phone.
Now, in the old days, if you actually displaced yourself to the store on the
right day, expecting to get the book in your greedy little hands ... and the
book would be late ... you'd be pretty damned steamed and be tempted
to stop patronizing the guilty parties. I can think of books like Crisis,
Dark Knight, Watchmen, and Miller's Daredevil run where the suspense
was so good that I fairly ran to the store. I would include Byrne's X-Men
and FF in that list.
I would have been effing pissed to arrive at a store and be told the book
didn't ship. So would a lot of other customers.
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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 09 June 2009 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | 8
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William--I don't recall Todd having said what you remembered him
saying. I do recall him saying that he didn't want to create things for
Marvel to own--but as you said, he really did not create anything by
himself at Marvel-- all of the characters he designed there were co-
creations.
Simon--Todd did not work for DC. Todd's Batman crossover was an
Image book and the only other thing Todd did was a single drawing of
Superman and that was in trade with Walter Simonson for a Spawn pinup.
Valentino did some work-for-hire at Archie Comics doing Sonic the
Hedgehog, incidentally. And Jim wasn't the only guy with prior experience
as a writer at Image. I started off writing and drawing my own work and
wrote a number of stories at Marvel prior to Image. And Todd wrote at
Marvel. There really were very few artists that left Marvel to become first-
time writers. Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld and Marc Silvestri all worked with writers
at Image. Those of us that did write at Marvel continued to do so at
Image.
And--so what if some of us did work at other companies after having
started Image? So what if I felt like scratching an itch and did work at
Marvel or DC? So what if others did work elsewhere? Was there a quote or
point somebody actually made or are you saying that we didn't stand by
the word you alone presumed we'd said collectively? I don't recall signing
any oath or proclamation.
Matt--I never said Todd did all of the issues of Invasion--merely that
they contributed to him getting burned out.
Stephen Robinson wrote:
Angela could not have existed without Spawn. She was not created in a
vacuum-- she was an evil twin--an angel to Spawn's devil. Conceptually,
she was a Spawn rip-off and she was designed by Todd-- yet this was a
Neil Gaiman "creation?" Alan Moore established the concept of there
having been Spawns throughout the ages--Neil uses that concept and
writes a story about a Spawn in medieval times, which, again, Todd
designs and suddenly Neil is the creator of "Medieval Spawn" even
though he never called him "Medieval Spawn" and that strikes you as fair?
Would you think it was fair for Alan Moore to sue Neil for mining his
script to come up with the concept of "Medieval Spawn?"
***********
SER: I'm a bit surprised by this POV. Why -- by this logic -- did the Image
founders leave Marvel? What could they have "created" at Marvel that
wasn't an extension of what Lee, Kirby, and Ditko had built?
Venom is listed as being "created by" David Micheline and Todd
McFarlane. However, someone else established the concept of the alien
costume, and Peter David was the author of the stories that formed the
"motivation" for the character. Kyle Rayner is listed as being created by
Ron Marz and Darryl Banks, though the concept of multiple Green
Lanterns was long since established and one could argue that Rayner was
a rip-off of previous Green Lanterns.
I don't necessarily see Angela as being any different from thsi. |
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Then we're on the same page.
I also do not see Venom or another Green Lantern as original creations.
Somewhat more so are the Marvel characters Stan Lee created with Steve
Ditko and Jack Kirby but many of those have quite visible roots as well.
Would the Hulk exist without Mr. Hyde and the Frankenstein Monster?
Would Mr. Fantastic exist without Plastic Man? Would the Invisible Girl
exist without the Invisible Man?
But there's a difference between, say, the Hulk and Venom or another
Green Lantern. The Hulk may be a variation on a theme but it's farther
removed from its source than those other examples.
Ditto Spawn--you can point to a skull or a chain and find those elements
elsewhere but the combination of traits is unique. Angela is less unique.
Angela is a derivative character who would and could not exist without
Spawn having come first.
And your question in regard to "why leave Marvel?" should be pretty
obvious. The characters we created at Image were no closer to those at
Marvel than Marvel's from those from DC and as their creators we could
fully guide our creations instead of having them jerked away like Lucy
with a football. Could I have been allowed to write and draw a 17-year
run on Savage Dragon at Marvel? I doubt it. Most of their books don't last
anywhere near that long and not a single new creation has had that kind
of longevity since the '60s.
Your question is, sadly, not unusual. Too often folks look at what we did
as some kind of betrayal of Marvel Comics--as though stepping away
from McDonald's to start your own restaurant is a crime. It's not. The
right to own and control your own creations is a good thing--and it's
worth all of the struggle and heartache and aggravation and grief.
I would think that after 45 plus years that readers might like to read an
alternative to the characters at Marvel and DC but it seems plenty of
people would prefer to read more of the same old shit. I think that's sad.
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William Byrd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 165
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 5:42am | IP Logged | 9
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I would think that after 45 plus years that readers might like to read an
alternative to the characters at Marvel and DC but it seems plenty of
people would prefer to read more of the same old shit. I think that's sad.
What alternative was 90's Image? Mostly a collection of solicitations that wouldn't come out, at least on time, with horrible storytelling and interiors that was mostly pin-up poses showcasing terrible anatomy.
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Lee Painter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 January 2009
Posts: 304
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 6:05am | IP Logged | 10
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Just a quick thought on this. Not that I'm attacking anyone mind you. I was a little kid back when image first came out, so like all kids in those d ays Image quickly became my favorite publisher. The thing is as a kid I would always go the local shop with five bucks that was burning a hole in my pocket, as is the case with most kids. When your book isn't on the shelf, as was the case often with image, then that money gets spent on marvel or DC because their books were on the shelf.
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 11
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it seems plenty of people would prefer to read more of the same old shit. I think that's sad.
Agreed. There are too many consumers who continue to buy high profile mainstream titles no matter how bad the quality (or inconsistent publishing schedule). It's unfortunate that interesting books that stray from the 'formula' usually can't survive, but at least there are success stories (like Mouse Guard) that give hope for 'alternative' creators and fans.
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Andrew Goletz
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 388
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| Posted: 10 June 2009 at 7:23am | IP Logged | 12
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QUOTE:
| What alternative was 90's Image? Mostly a collection of solicitations that wouldn't come out, at least on time, with horrible storytelling and interiors that was mostly pin-up poses showcasing terrible anatomy. |
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Image showed people at the time that they didn't need to work at Marvel or DC to be successful, sell comics and make money. Again, some of the most popular, fan favorite creators on best selling established comics jumped ship to go do their own thing. It was exciting. It was new. I remember seeing Rob Liefeld on talk shows discussing it and CNN reporting on the story. No one could believe a creator would walk away from Spider-Man to do their own thing and not many thought it would work.
The quality of the books is up for people to decide on their own (but they were selling better than anything else at the time) and the lateness was an issue at the beginning but the company is, what, 20 years old now? Without Image I don't think we'd have as much diversity in the comics market today (yeah, yeah, the market is still dominated by the Big Two and superheroes but there are quality alternatives out there). Image gave us Savage Dragon and The Maxx from the beginning. Todd brought in writers like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman and Dave Sim to write HIS characters. And now Image is a very creator friendly company with a reliable shipping schedule and books like Invincible, Walking Dead and True Story Swear to God where quality and diversity seem to be the main concern.
So yeah they missed some deadlines when they first started but I did some crap I'm embarassed about 20 years ago, too. The fact is that they gave readers and creators an Viable alternative to the way things had been done for the last 50 years and I applaud them for that.
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Topic Closed)
