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Rob Hewitt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10182
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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Interesting list, Ethan. Though you name them "spies," are these people who were accused or people who were convicted and sentenced for espionage? Your post is unclear on this point.
***
http://www.nsa.gov/venona/index.cfm
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Rob Hewitt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10182
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | 2
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"There can no longer be any doubt about the widespread and successful Soviet espionage operations against the United States and Great Britain during the 1940s, and that, aside from their own professional skill, Soviet intelligence services could count on the aid of the Communist parties of the target countries."
http://www.cia.gov/csi/books/venona/forward.htm
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7526
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | 3
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http://www.nsa.gov/venona/index.cfm
*****
Also interesting. I'll draw no immediate conclusions from this website's offerings, as I haven't taken the time to read them in any depth.
However, if I concede the point (for purposes of discussion) that Communist infiltration was a valid and serious danger, I still don't concede that generating an atmosphere of suspicion and paranoia helped overcome that danger. Please correct me on this point-- with a fact-supported argument-- if anyone on this discussion thinks I'm wrong.
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7526
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | 4
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One small point to consider: governments have a vested interest in substantiating and justifying their own histories. Is any government likely to offer candid assessments of where they screwed up?
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Rob Hewitt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10182
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | 5
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At any rate, while I believe McCarthy has been somewhat exaggerated, and anti-McCarthyism has long been more dangerous to this country than McCarthyism was (i.e. spies are under every bed was replaced with spies were under no beds), I don't believe McCarthy means, methods, or accusations were proper.
I think he turned out to be right, with his general (not specific) points, but almost by accident.
I should note HUAC, Richard Nixon, McCarthy are all separate things. In fact, Eisenhower eventually had Nixon "attack" McCarthy. Nixon gave a speech aftyer Ike got pissed that the Secretary of War was accused by McCarthy.
"Men who have in the past done effective work exposing Communists in this country have, by reckless talk and questionable methods, made themselves the issue rather than the cause they believe in so deeply."
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Rob Hewitt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10182
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | 6
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One small point to consider: governments have a vested interest in substantiating and justifying their own histories. Is any government likely to offer candid assessments of where they screwed up?
****
While I didn;t study it in detail, it was generally accepted fact when i was a histiry major, even by the liberal professors (which is all of them pretty much) that there was a lot of there, there.
From the Soviet Union archives and de-classified information.
None of this justifies McCarthy or McCarthyism. But far too many people have minimized the threat of communism and the Soviet Union over the years. I personally think they were proven wrong, for what it is worth.
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Jay Matthews Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 2468
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | 7
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When we are confronted with the facts of Soviet infiltration, the
debate inevitably shifts to talk about McCarthy being onto something,
but handling things badly or using indefensible tactics.
That's why I think the real issue is courage. McCarthy comes
across through history as a troll of a man; conceded. For this
very reason, I feel shame on behalf of the rest of our
institutions: the rest of the Congress, the executive branch, the
journalists, and even the ordinary citizens who allowed themselves to
be turned off by the sheer unpleasantness of it all.
They should have been chagrined that it fell to a man like McCarthy to have the courage to face the problem head on.
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Jay Matthews Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 2468
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 8
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John Byrne wrote:
"Fact" here used in the sense of "unsubstantiated
balderdash". |
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"Unsubstantiated balderdash" here used in the sense of facts which
disturb a settled view, without regard to the published, peer reviewed,
and oft-discussed results of the Venona Project, made available to the
public in 1995.
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Jay Matthews Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 2468
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | 9
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Eric Kleefeld wrote:
Agents are one thing, but sympathizers, too? Yes, the nerve of all these
guys in the American government in the early 1940's, being friendly with a
wartime ally... |
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Good point, seriously. That is one of the ways we got in the
mess, i.e. we went from being wartime allies to cold war enemies so
quickly upon the descending of the Iron Curtain. But that was all
the more reason to address it forthrightly and with courage, not denial.
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Paul Greer Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 18 August 2004 Posts: 14190
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 10:37pm | IP Logged | 10
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The simple fact that McCarthy would accuse people of being communist without providing these individuals with evidence was one of many ways he and others trampled on people's constitutional rights. If you accuse hundreds of people for the same crime you are bound to find some that are guilty. It doesn't make your methods right because you found some real communists in the process. We are provided with certain rights in this country and it is up to our government to uphold those rights. When they refuse to do that they will go down in history as villians just like the communists they were trying to catch. The media was scared to speak out, for fear of being branded a communist. Murrow spoke out against this and guess what, McCarthy tried to brand him a communist. Ignoring indivual rights and trying to silence a free press through intimidation is something the communists used to do. Think about that when you look at what McCarthy did in his time.
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Martin Kogan Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 July 2004 Location: Argentina Posts: 1477
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 10:49pm | IP Logged | 11
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"Do not forsake me oh my darling."
Edited by Martin Kogan on 31 October 2005 at 10:53pm
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Eric Kleefeld Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4422
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Posted: 01 November 2005 at 12:27am | IP Logged | 12
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Jay Matthews:
That is one of the ways we got in the mess, i.e. we went from being
wartime allies to cold war enemies so quickly upon the descending of the
Iron Curtain. But that was all the more reason to address it forthrightly
and with courage, not denial.
==========
True. I think the Truman Administration did a decent job overall, with a
lot of credit due to guys like Acheson, Marshall and especially Kennan for
articulating what the new order would be. There were some foul-ups, but
it was inevitable in an operation that big dealing with the matter of
switching from alliance to enmity almost overnight.
While it was "all the more reason to address it forthrightly," it was also
reason to give some leeway to people who had acted in good faith in
dealing with an ally, perhaps even those who were a bit slow on figuring
out just how dire the new situation was. This was leeway that the red-
baiters were loath to give.
In all the rush to (rightly) condemn Communism, it's important not to lose
sight of the fact that World War II could not have been won without
Russian sacrifices, and a lot of friendliness with them through the early
part of the 1940's came from that, not from some secret desire on the
part of the U.S. government to replace Mom and Apple Pie with vodka and
borscht.
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