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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | 1  
The uncomfortable fact…

*****

"Fact" here used in the sense of "unsubstantiated
balderdash".
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Ethan Van Sciver
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | 2  
It could be argued that Soviet agents influencing the United States government at important junctures like Yalta, Soviet spies giving away American military secrets like the Atom Bomb, and working at the State Department is a good cause for A Culture of Fear.  It could also be argued that such a feeling of fear among americans is less of a problem than what it is that they're actually afraid of.  I'm suspicious of people who say "Don't Be Afraid" of things that I know I should be afraid of. 
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Ethan Van Sciver
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | 3  

JB Says: "Fact" here used in the sense of "unsubstantiated
balderdash".

Because.....?
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 4  

Jay M: The uncomfortable fact is that this all levels of the U.S. government infested (by any reasonable measure) with Soviet agents and sympathizers.  These were government officials, not actors and directors we are talking about.  Alger Hiss is the bedrock example that some people wish would go away.  The issue needed serious attention, and the real embarrassment to our country is that it took a politician out of left field to have the courage to call attention to it.

*****

Say what?

Hiss, one single solitary example of a proven spy in our government, leads you to believe that the government was "infested"? What a frigging crock. If HUAC or McCarthy had turned up anything like the 284 cases of Communist infiltration they claimed, don't you think you'd have a few more names to hang your case on than Hiss?

I don't think anyone wishes this would go away. I think more people wish we hadn't embarrassed ourselves with a sordid display that netted extremely few real criminals at the cost of many good reputations and careers.

And I'd say McCarthy was more "out of right field" myself, but he was still way, way out there.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 5  

Ethan: It could be argued that Soviet agents influencing the United States government at important junctures like Yalta, Soviet spies giving away American military secrets like the Atom Bomb, and working at the State Department is a good cause for A Culture of Fear.  It could also be argued that such a feeling of fear among americans is less of a problem than what it is that they're actually afraid of.  I'm suspicious of people who say "Don't Be Afraid" of things that I know I should be afraid of.

*****

See "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street" for a succinct exploration of why a culture of fear is a really bad idea. Frightened people are irrational; they're one shout away from being a mob. Frightened people (or despicable opportunists) turn in their neighbors for imaginary misdeeds; frightened people give away their liberties to the government in the name of security.

Chicken Little was real popular for awhile there. Ditto the Boy Who Cried Wolf.

Save the alarums and excursions for moments when there's a real danger. Cultivating paranoia on a national scale does not serve the public good and you haven't mustered a single argument that persuades me otherwise.
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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | 6  
Jay Matthews

The uncomfortable fact is that this all levels of the U.S. government infested
(by any reasonable measure) with Soviet agents and sympathizers.

==========

Agents are one thing, but sympathizers, too? Yes, the nerve of all these
guys in the American government in the early 1940's, being friendly with a
wartime ally...
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Ethan Van Sciver
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 7  

 




Edited by Ethan Van Sciver on 31 October 2005 at 2:49pm
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Ethan Van Sciver
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 8  

"See "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street" for a succinct exploration of why a culture of fear is a really bad idea. Frightened people are irrational; they're one shout away from being a mob. Frightened people (or despicable opportunists) turn in their neighbors for imaginary misdeeds; frightened people give away their liberties to the government in the name of security.

Chicken Little was real popular for awhile there. Ditto the Boy Who Cried Wolf.

Save the alarums and excursions for moments when there's a real danger. Cultivating paranoia on a national scale does not serve the public good and you haven't mustered a single argument that persuades me otherwise."

Sir, I do not formulate opinions about real life from television sci fi dramas, as much as I love Rod Serling.  The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street bore no actual resemblence to how actual human beings behave or react upon finding out their government has been hijacked by agents of a totalitarian regime.   It was cute though.

If nothing I've said or have shown you has convinced you that there WAS real danger to concerned about in the 1940's-60's concerning the Soviet Union, then nothing short of a full scale alien invasion will raise your eyebrow.  (See War of the Worlds, for what that might be like.)  A little fear is okay.
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Scott Rowland
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | 9  
I don't deny that there were spies and that they should have been investigated, but my (limited) knowledge of McCarthy leads me to believe that he was a poor spokesperson for that viewpoint and probably resulted in a decrease in national security at that time be his actions.  Just like "environmentalists" who torch SUVs are not helping us to have a healthy and sustainable environment.

At least a couple of the people listed above do not actually have Wikipedia pages, by the way.  And from what I've seen on the boards here, I'm not sure that linking to Wikipedia is the best way to convince people on this board of your facts.

As for "Maple Street" --  like many an allegory, it exaggerates to better illuminate its point.


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George Atlas
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 10  
 Ethan Van Sciver wrote:
It could also be argued that such a feeling of fear among americans is less of a problem than what it is that they're actually afraid of.


It's less of a problem if you think America is just a place to live, and the ideals of liberty on which this country is founded are unimportant.


Edited by George Atlas on 31 October 2005 at 3:19pm
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 11  
Just a note that Ethan's list above was taken from the
outrageously unreliable Wikipedia - the same source he
refered us to during the last McCarthy thread.
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 31 October 2005 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 12  

Interesting list, Ethan. Though you name them "spies," are these people who were accused or people who were convicted and sentenced for espionage? Your post is unclear on this point.

The reference to War of the Worlds is cute, btw, but a non-starter. You'd be better off with something like Invasion of the Body Snatchers-- at least then, you'd be in the thematic ballpark. Or The Blob, if you prefer big amorphous dangers...

One thing I'll admit, the topic has me interested in learning more about this time in our nation's past. I'm betting that further study won't make it less of a black eye to the cause of liberty and justice, however.
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