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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133864
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 5:33am | IP Logged | 1
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Speaking of the N’Garai, I decided to do a little homework, and found this, from X-MEN 143.
Not to dump on Chris again, but even after all these years I was immediately struck by how loaded with his various tropes those two panels are. Ignoring the time lapse presented in the pictures, for instance. (An important reason for writers to read their dialog out loud. How long does it take?)* A little superfluous bragging from Kitty "I'm a Genius" Pryde. Followed by an immediate take-down, since even in something as simple as this the X-Men cannot be allowed clean wins. And, to top it all off, a totally unnecessary reference to Jean. Mea culpa I guess. I gave him a lot of space, and he had to fill it. ____________________ * Yes, I know these are thought balloons. And thoughts are faster than spoken words. But as I have noted before, Chris' characters always seem to think in paragraphs. Often, as above, expository paragraphs!
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Steven Queen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 February 2020
Location: United States
Posts: 955
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 7:33am | IP Logged | 2
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For some reason, THIS drifted thru my brain this morning. Got me thinking about turning it into a single issue story for Kitty and Peter—yes, even tho I don’t really approve of the supernatural intrusion in X-MEN.
---
Honestly that sounds like a lot of fun. It's taken me a few years to warm to Kitty. She originally felt a bit like a Jean replacement, and I guess I was still grumpy about her death. But now, in your hands, it's been fun to see the youthful Kitty again --- not the ninja-ified persona everyone on the X-men eventually became --- but true youthful exuberance.
With regards to Mr. Lee (presumably a friend of yours), I will only say his X-men come off as much more wooden to me. Your dynamic range of expression is something that I imagine still inspires younger artists.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12820
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 7:33am | IP Logged | 3
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No matter how much those of us who enjoyed (loved!) the
Claremont-Byrne X-MEN run, this post by JB reveals from
the inside out how and why it was unsustainable. Looking
at the panels now, with JB's comments, I of course
understand his critique -- from the original artist
himself it is, in my opinion, both legitimate and
sincere.
When I was a reader way back then, however, I didn't see
a problem with these panels, or (the many) other examples
akin to them. While I was not even remotely a fan of
where Mr. Claremont took the X-MEN post-JB, when I first
read these panels I can't deny that I appreciated the
packed-in thoughts. I felt I got to know Kitty more, not
as a true braggart but a teen typically incapable of not
expressing the arrogance of youth, until reality cut her
down. And I also appreciated that Chris Claremont voiced
what a lot of longtime readers, like me, felt about Jean
Grey's death, a real sense of sadness. YES, that's a
whole lot of content in just two panels! But as a reader,
it didn't then give me a moment's pause; indeed, I liked
it.*
I am not arguing that either JB or Mr. Claremont were
right or wrong, or anything in-between, in re these two
panels or others like them. But neither is JB truly
dumping on Chris Claremont: he's only explaining that
their storytelling styles too often did not effectively
mesh, even when like Lee-Kirby they worked "against" each
other -- did not mesh for him, even if they did
for readers. And I can't think of a better reason to
leave a partnership, no matter how successful at the time
or in retrospect, and no matter how much readers like me
lamented to see this run end. Well, even The Beatles
broke up!
*Yet, to be perfectly candid, when JB left, it seemed
almost instantly patent to me that Mr. Claremont was
fully "off the leash" and not only the thoughts but the
actions of the X-Men as he presented them ruined the
comicbook for me. Just for me, of course. Masses of
readers loved what he did with his formidable talent. But
I dropped it soon after. So, even though nostalgia can
cloud my vision, I am grateful to JB for posts like this
to enable me to look back at these beloved comicbooks
with a keener perspective.
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Michael Genitempo
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 July 2019
Location: United States
Posts: 428
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 7:48am | IP Logged | 4
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It's a good storyteller who can make us care so much about the character and their well being.
Several issues ago, I was really worried about what might happen to Jean with those men.
However, on this particular page, and with knowledge of the build in the story up to this point, I am less worried for my favorite X-Men (in spite of the imagery).
Continuing to enjoy the craftmanship that's going into this...
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Nathan Greno
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2006
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 8:51am | IP Logged | 5
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JB: And, to top it all off, a totally unnecessary reference to Jean.
—
The reference to Jean may feel a bit tacked on in this scene, but I do feel moments like this can add depth, humanity and relatability imho.
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Nathan Greno
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 6
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Michael G: However, on this particular page, and with knowledge of the build in the story up to this point, I am less worried for my favorite X-Men (in spite of the imagery).
—
Given the knowledge we have, I can also imagine what the next panel will be — but I’m very intrigued about the “WHY” of it all!
Edited by Nathan Greno on 29 April 2020 at 8:59am
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Nathan Greno
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 7
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Michael P: While I was not even remotely a fan of where Mr. Claremont took the X-MEN post-JB, when I first read these panels I can't deny that I appreciated the packed-in thoughts. I felt I got to know Kitty more, not
as a true braggart but a teen typically incapable of not expressing the arrogance of youth, until reality cut her down. And I also appreciated that Chris Claremont voiced
what a lot of longtime readers, like me, felt about Jean Grey's death, a real sense of sadness. YES, that's a whole lot of content in just two panels! But as a reader, it didn't then give me a moment's pause; indeed, I liked it.
—
I do agree. I appreciate hearing the thought process of the penciler — it’s fascinating! ...but I can also understand the writer’s intention in this situation.
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Darin Henry
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Joined: 30 September 2013
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 8
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JB, any recollection of what the plot said would be happening on these two panels before you drew them? With minimal backgrounds, it seems like it was built for a fair bit of introspection.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 9
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The plot was in my head. Chris had very little input building this tale. Which is one of the reasons there’s so much copy, I suppose. As I’ve noted before, the smaller his contributions to the plot, the greater the volume of script. I’ve pointed to the famous “Wolverine in the sewer” scene, which was entirely his—I just drew what he asked for—and which has some of his most terse copy. (As I’ve also noted before, sometimes Chris’ need to have the script dominate the scene gave us some good stuff. In this same issue, remember the young couple I drew searching for a suitable Xmas tree? It was Chris who made them newlyweds celebrating their first Xmas. Brilliant!)
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Michael Penn
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 10:28am | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
I appreciate hearing the thought process of the
penciler |
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I did not think that Mr. Claremont's script was expressing
JB's own thoughts in those panels (or generally elsewhere).
But, apologies for extending this digression, a question
for JB: were there instances where your own dialogue was
used in the X-MEN run?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 11
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The closest Chris came to using dialog I’d suggested was in an issue of IRON FIST where I had Misty dodge a badguy and say “olé”. There wasn’t really much else he could have done!
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Eric Sofer
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Joined: 31 January 2014
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| Posted: 29 April 2020 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 12
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Mr. Byrne vs. Mr. Lee - the very first thing I notice is that Jim Lee's art is so SLOPPY. There are lines all over the place! It seems to me that every man has a four day beard, that their musculature in every single case is over developed, that there are non-descript texture lines on everyone, and that it appears to me as if the art should have camouflage on it rather than highlighting it.
When I focus on it, the same is to be said of Mr. Byrne's art - almost. But his musculatures fit, textures look natural, there aren't unnecessary shadows, the snozzberries taste like snozzberries, etc.
For example - that Dark Phoenix picture looks clear as crystal to me. I don't feel I'm looking at a drawing of her; I feel that I am seeing her (and it scares the hell outta me, too!)
Or Captain America. Mr. Byrne's Cap is my favorite, and this picture encompasses it beautifully. He LOOKS like the perfect fighting man.His attitude, the chain mail, the way he holds the shield, the way he's lunging... EVERYTHING.
I have never been a big fan of Mr. Lee's art - honestly, it seems too similar to a lot of other artists in what I might describe as the "IMAGE" model. Mr. Byrne looks like Mr. Byrne's model. Or possibly Kirby style. But my vote is for Mr. Byrne's art over Mr. Lee's.
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