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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 12:05pm | IP Logged | 1
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Believe me, Stephane, I'm well aware of what Claremont thinks X Factor did to Scott. I can sympathize a little better now, I think, because of the last 7 years.
I can cite multiple later X Factor issues, and 90s issues, where Scott is Scott. Thing is, he had crossed a line in X Factor that some couldn't abide. So, it became commonplace to say that he had acted like that since X Factor 1 when in reality he hadn't. But what he had done there had ruined the character for a lot of people just as what he did under Morrison ruined him for me. Sending out kill squads is just icing on the cake.
I'd be shocked if Claremont gives us a happy Jean/Scott ending here. Just those couple panels I saw I think fundamentally compromise the Jean/Scott relationship. Jean is settling for Scott when her passion is really for Logan. Logan disappears. Does that change what he's said about Jean/Scott? Were there other scenes that mitigated the ones that were online? I'm only going by them and maybe they're out of context?
Jean had resolved the Maddie and Phoenix issue over a year's worth of comics before this period. That period where she had dueling personas vying for control. She still hd the memories, but IIRC the description was as faded dreams.
I agree about the Jean and Storm friendship. It was more something we were told after the fact existed than anything we really saw in the original stories.
Unless you consider the scene on the sace shuttle as grounds for a friendship.
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8157
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 2
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"Like just telling us that Storm and Jean were best
friends. I can accept that, but I'll be damned if I can find the
comics where they spent any time together to form this friendship."
That's an excellent example, and another is Xavier's out-of-the-blue kinship with Magneto. They were both fleshed out more in some of the Classic X-Men backups, but I don't feel that fans should have to rely on explanations to be given out years after the fact, In a reprint book, to boot!
Edited by Vinny Valenti on 22 June 2009 at 12:53pm
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 3
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"Believe me, Stephane, I'm well aware of what Claremont thinks X Factor did to Scott."
Which I would agree with.....but what about what Claremont did to Scott to begin with? Have him fall in love and quickly marry a woman mainly because she looked just like his long-lost love? That's what began the spiral downward in the first place. Not to mention that he woefully underused Cyclops after JB left. Once Storm became leader, he became the guy who gave helpful suggestions in battle a few times, would disappear for a few months, come back on the sidelines again, then got married and disappeared for a while.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133577
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 4
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Have him fall in love and quickly marry a woman mainly because she looked
just like his long-lost love?
••
Another example of the reader being told what was going on, since
Paul Smith made absolutely no attempt to draw the same face Dave and I
had been drawing. I read the issue in which Madlyne Pryor arrived on the
scene and I had no idea what the characters were reacting to. Smitty drew a
standard Smitty girl. She had red hair, but he didn't even match the
hairstyle!
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Thanos Kollias
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2004
Location: Greece
Posts: 5009
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | 5
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Exactly! I had the exact same reaction on the Madelyne looks like Jean reveal!
As for Claremont, I think he practically destroyed Cyclops with his stories after Byrne, so he can't possibly have any say on the matter of how other writers handled Scott. There were a couple of good moments (when he singlehandely defeats the entire team and when the New Mutants react with a "so this is Cyclops" when they meet him)
Scott should have never married Madelyne, should have never dated/flirted/whatever Lee, Scott should have returned as leader at some point. But, Scott not only did all those things, he also lost leadership battle to a powerless Storm.
I think Claremont hated the original X-Men and made valiant efforts to dismidd them.
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2218
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 6
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from reading several recent interviews with Claremont about X-Men Forever, I get the strong impression that he regrets some of his past stories and decisions regarding certain X-characters (like having Cyclops get married). In these recent interviews he has said that he has to be very careful in the direction he takes these characters or else they might wind up having "to make a deal with the devil" (a reference to Spider-Man's deal with Mephisto).
Claremont has also expressed his disenchantment with what has been done with Wolverine over the last several years. Hell (no pun intended), he has said several times in several recent interviews, that the only way to fix Wolverine is to have him make a deal with the devil.
Over on the comixfan forums, Claremont has admitted that he will sometimes ignore past continuity (including his own) in X-Men Forever.
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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 7
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However Smith drew her, the other characters sure acted like she looked just like Jean. Everytime someone who knew Jean meets her the reaction is pretty much the same.
Yes, I think Maddie was a misstep. Scott should not be marrying anyone over the course of 5-6 issues. Sure as hell not someone who looks just like Jean Grey. In fairness to how Claremont wrote it, Scott is marrying her for herself, not because he's Jean. Later writers switched it back. That was part of the Inferno Maddie retcon stuff that I could buy since Scott married this woman so quickly. At least Jean hd been dead 30+ issues then. He was not with another woman when it happened.
Claremont gave him his moments after John left. He starred in UXM 150 with Magneto. The entire time they were in outer space covered a whole lot of issues.
He was great in the first Brood Saga. That guy who refused to kill the Brood infected Xavier in that story, THAT'S Cyclops. That's who Cyclops is supposed to be.
He took the entire team out in UXM 175. By himself, using strategy, their own powers against them. That's a leader. Someone who knows the strengths and weaknesses of every member.
However, I always viewed it as Cyclops, while not someone he disliked, was not a favorite in the sense that Wolverine or Storm were. I don't know if he ever spoke to John at length about it or not. All I know is everytime John Byrne is asked his favorite X Man, I see the same answer. An answer I don't recall ever seeing Claremont give.
Anyway, he wrote Cyclops out too much for me to think that he loved writing the character. I felt the same way about his Xavier. I see Claremont give these interviews where he'd talk about how Scott should move on to the next stage of his life. That there's somthing wrong if he, after all this time, isn't wondering if there is somehing else than being an X Man.
Fine, wouldn't the same hold true for Storm? She'd been in the books from the time the new team arrived. Shouldn't the same have held true for her?
Yes, he put her through numerus changes, but she always came back to the X Men. She didn't retire o move on to the next stage in life. She didn't, for example, marry Forge and decide to make a normal life away from the team.
In that respect, it struck me as him being inconsistent.
I just think he probably enjoyed writing Storm's character more than he did Cyclops. Which is fine, just don't make up one set of rules for Cyclops and another for other characters like Storm
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Keith Thomas
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Joined: 06 April 2009
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 8
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since Paul Smith made absolutely no attempt to draw the
same face Dave and I had been drawing.
Well I'm glad someone agrees with me about Paul Smith's
faces.
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Keith Thomas
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Joined: 06 April 2009
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | 9
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I think Claremont hated the original X-Men and made
valiant efforts to dismidd them.
I don't think that's true. I think Phoenix dying kinda
ruined Cyclops, I think he'd have been just fine if Jean
hadn't died. I mean you're the leader of the team and yet
you lose the team member you've been with the longest and
she also happens to be the woman you love, that can't
affect you for the better. It seems to me almost like
Claremont likes to write little revenge scenarios when
he's forced to change his original intentions.
You make me punish Jean well I'll kill her instead.
Scott loses the love of his life well I'll just make a
character who looks exactly like her and have him marry
her.
You're going to bring Jean back after I had to kill her
and make Cyclops leave his wife and kid for her, well
I'll make Jean fall for Logan and put Cyclops' wife on
the team.
You're going to make me kill Cyclops' ex-wife in a
crossover I don't want to do well I'll first make her
seduce his brother and then have Jean absorb her
personality and memories.
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 10
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I also hated the Cyclops/Maddie marriage and that they eventually had a baby. IMO, getting married and becoming a father are the two most damaging things that were done to Cyclops character. At least in the XMF continuity Cyclops is not (so far, and I hope it stays that way) Cable's father (God, I hated that revelation).
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Keith Thomas
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | 11
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At least in the XMF continuity Cyclops is not (so far,
and I hope it stays that way)Cable's father (God, I hated
that revelation)
Talk about adding insult to injury.
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Rick Whiting
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | 12
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I don't think Claremont hates all of the originally X-Men, only Ice Man (since he hardly ever uses the character). I think Claremont loves writing both Beast and Angel, since he tries to use them every chance he gets.
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