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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133563
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | 1
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Swiping is copying, sometimes line for line, so a Joe Staffhack Captain America becomes a Bill Payer Captain America. Sometimes it's copying a pose, with attendant anatomical details, so Staffhack's Cap becomes Payer's Green Lantern.Generally speaking, a homage is less precise, as with the EXCALIBER cover above, or my FF 1 variants. A homage wants to be recognized for what it is, without being an exact copy.
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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 7:04pm | IP Logged | 2
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If you define a swipe as "duplicating another artist's drawing line for
line"--then few artists are that bold--or that accurate. If that's your
criteria--then Rob Liefeld has never swiped a thing in his life and neither
have a lot of artists.
If you define it as--"looking at somebody's work and copying it"--then a
lot of artists have done that--and some--have made a career out of it.
There's also--looking at somebody else's stuff and doing a variation on
that theme. The X-Men/Excalibur cover falls more into that realm
because the poses aren't dead on even though the cover feels familiar.
With this sort of thing--it's not always obvious. It can be as simple as the
artist saying, "I remember a cover where two guys are fighting in space--
I'm going to do a cover where two guys are fighting in space." But it may
look little or nothing like the cover they were thinking of.
But this gets very sticky--because some folks get all hot and bothered if
you accuse them of swiping--but they don't mind if you say they've done
an homage or two. The idea that--somehow--an "homage" honors the
artist in some way--whereas a "swipe" is just stealing.
Both--essentially--are the same thing. They're both copying--they're
both shortcuts.
My understanding of the distinction is that with an "homage" the person
copying the drawing is not trying to hide the fact that they're copying a
drawing. They're doing a "take" on a familiar scene or image. One would
do an "homage" as a flashback to a scene from another comic or as a
parody of a cover. A swipe would be taking a drawing of Superman and
turning it into another character and trying to smuggle it into a comic
book unnoticed.
One could argue that the Jonah Hex cover in an homage, because the
Superman cover is (to some readers, at least) familiar and iconic but that
the Jonah Hex fight scene is a swipe because other elements were altered
in an attempt to disguise the fact that the artist was copying from
another artist.
But it gets--tricky. Many artists will reference establishing shots of
Doom's castle or the Baxter Building or Galactus' ship or the Helicarrier.
Are these swipes? Homages? What?
A guy who is swiping or homaging is doing, essentially, the same thing.
Is the writer/artist writing a story in order to show a lot of flashbacks and
incorporate homages really all that different from the one writing a story
in such a way to incorporate swipes? I think the distinction is minimal, at
best. Both are taking short cuts. One is arguably more honest about it--
but both are physically doing the same thing and taking the same
shortcuts.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 7:09pm | IP Logged | 3
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But it gets--tricky. Many artists will reference establishing shots of Doom's castle or the Baxter Building or Galactus' ship or the Helicarrier. Are these swipes? Homages? What? •• That's called "using reference" -- unless, like Liefeld, you're attempting to copy the image line for line. Helicarrier, for instance. But you know this. What is possibly gained by this kind of obtuseness?
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JT Molloy
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Posts: 2092
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | 4
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I'm back! and boy are my arms tired... (what am I to do with my 70 or so
post count missing!)
Copying off other artists was great when I was a kid inbetween my own
crap because it taught me to go "oh that's what it feels like to do that
squiggle near the calf", but if I'm out to do my own drawing, especially
nowadays, it has to be 100% me or I'll feel dirty and also lose out on
growing or developing a coherent style down the road.
Also since I starting getting a whole lot better at perspective in recent
years, I've sworn off drawing from photo reference for good.
Maybe if more people would just pay (even loose) attention on how to
draw academically (whilst dicking around on your own as well), the world
wouldn't have comic book "artists" that steal poses and trace two movie
stars as one character on one page.
They'd also probably be faster too!
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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 5
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John Byrne wrote:
But it gets--tricky. Many artists will reference establishing shots of
Doom's castle or the Baxter Building or Galactus' ship or the Helicarrier.
Are these swipes? Homages? What?
••
That's called "using reference" -- unless, like Liefeld, you're attempting to
copy the image line for line. Helicarrier, for instance.
But you know this. What is possibly gained by this kind of obtuseness?
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I'm not trying to be obtuse.
I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the distinction.
If a good artist looks at a Kirby drawing and subtly alters it, and is "using
it as reference" how is that all that different from a lousy artist who
ineptly tries to copy a Kirby drawing and ends up changing it due to their
failings as an artist?
The end result is the same--it looks similar but is not an exact
duplication.
Is the second a "swipe" because of the artist's INTENT? Because if INTENT
is the measure--it gets even harder to define because if requires a
certain amount of mind-reading.
Let's take (for the sake of argument--and you'll have to bear with me a
sec' because I don't have any of these comics directly in front of me)--
your drawing of Galactus' ship from your first run on the FF and Rob
Liefeld's drawing of the S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier.
In the FF story, you drew Galactus' ship--as 2/3 of a page--and it is
nearly line for line of Kirby's establishing shot of the same ship. The
same planets circled it--in the same relative location--and the angle
was not altered. To the untrained eye--this could almost pass for a stat
from the earlier FF story. It was even inked by Joe Sinnott so it had that
same slickness to it.
In Rob;s Hellicarrier shot--it was also very similar to another Hellicarrier
shot--by Jim Lee. I don't have the books in front of me--my recollection
of it was that it was not as big of a shot--but it way pretty much the
same thing that Jim Lee drew.
Other than the relative quality of the drawings involved--is there some
quantifiable distinction that one should be seeing that qualifies one as an
homage and the other as a swipe? Again--I'm not trying to be obtuse or
anything else--I'm attempting to get clarification. I don't understand the
difference.
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Tom Aquin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: Panama
Posts: 196
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
| I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the distinction. |
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The way I've seen it in every message board I've been to, it pretty much boils down to whether someone is a fan or not of the artist. If they like the artist, then it's an 'homage', if they don't, it's a 'swipe'.
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Dan Burke
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 June 2007
Posts: 432
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 8:29pm | IP Logged | 7
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I also think a distinction is this:
How well known is the original image?
Crisis #7, X-men #138 (exit cyclops), action #1, superman #1, FF#1, amazing fantasy #15, avengers #4, giant sized #1, etc are INSTANTLY recognizable to "most" comic fans. There is no secret. The artist is not attempting to shelter the source material.
When I seen an artist swiping interior artwork from one comic to draw interior artwork of another comic. I see that as deceptive and an artist purposefully being lazy.
So, yes, to me it is all intent. An artist drawing an homage wants you to recognize the source (and usually gives credit).
An artist drawing a swipe DOES NOT want you to recognize the source.
Therein lies a HUGE difference!
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17700
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | 8
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All kidding aside... Is there anyone here who truly believes that something
like John Byrne's FF#1 homages is the same thing as an artist putting
together a comic book (or three or four or more) by copying poses from
uncredited sources?
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Dan Burke
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 June 2007
Posts: 432
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | 9
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the act is the same, of course, but the reason there are different words in the English language to describe the same action is because severity and intent vary with act.
funny or hilarious... smart or genius.... pretty or super f'ing hot!
Killing is not necessarily murder.... and murder itself has multiple degrees... based on severity and intent.
whether murder in the first degree or manslaughter, you still killed somebody! But will you be spending time in jail or a shrink's office?
LOL!
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Steve Swanson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 333
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | 10
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Thanks for all the responses guys, I think I got the answer I wanted: Essentially a swipe is taking others work and calling it your own, and using photo references is using photo reference (as long as you don't trace). It's also the way you go about it - if you look at the picture then build a picture from the inside out it probably isn't a swipe but if you trace or you don't bother with the structure and just eye the original picture while doing the drawing that's probably a swipe.
Seems to be some grey area here, so basically I have to go with the default option: If it feels like you're stealing you almost certainly are.
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John Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3152
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 11
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I was just at the watchman sight http://rss.warnerbros.com/watchmen/ and saw this image
that looks very much like the image Gerry had up earlier
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Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | 12
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Argh!
Been searching, but can't find or remember the name...does anybody know
of a "fine artist", a la Roy Lichtenstein, who silkscreens super-hero images
for his paintings? There is a famous one with Daredevil's face...another big
canvas is a Dark Phoenix panel from JB. I posted about this guy once...
...has a Greek surname, is all I recall...
Edited by Flavio Sapha on 20 February 2008 at 9:56pm
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Topic Closed)
