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Steve Lieber
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 July 2004
Posts: 295
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 1
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Steven Cassidy wrote:
"Do artists get paid their regular rates when they obviously swipe material (or play homage)?"
Yes. So long as you don't get them sued, publishers don't really seem to care if you're swiping.
I have heard of a few occasions when someone whose cover was being homaged for a newer cover getting cut a check for layout, so the newer artist might have not gotten paid for the layout himself, but I've never heard of anything like that for interior storytelling. I worked on a script in the 90s that called for me to redraw someone else's panel as part of a flashback, and I got in touch with the original artist and asked if he wanted a kickback for the swipe. ( I'm trying to remember which artist and which book, and I can't, which means I've officially become an old codger.) Anyway, he told me not to worry about it- his stuff was work-for-hire and so was mine, so in the end, it was the company swiping itself.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | 2
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QUOTE:
| Anyway, he told me not to worry about it- his stuff was work-for-hire and so was mine, so in the end, it was the company swiping itself. |
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That's a good point. All work done for hire becomes the property of the company that did the hiring, after all.
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Mike Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 530
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | 3
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"All work done for hire becomes the property of the company that did the hiring, after all."
****************************************
Well, sure - but if part of that work-for-hire agreement includes royalties when the work is reprinted, I can see the argument for some kind of compensation when it is swiped.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 4
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Mike, that's a good point, too.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | 5
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I can see the argument for some kind of compensation when it is swiped.
••
Even when it's not flat out swiped. As noted elsewhere (upthread?) I
applauded Mike Carlin's decision to send a design fee to artists when their
covers were "homaged". Kicked myself, as it was really something I should
have thought of.
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Michael Cross
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 October 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 1304
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | 6
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Currently, with 2 really excellent creators weighing in, this is the best thread on the board right now.
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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 7
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John Byrne wrote:
Then the worst thing that could have happened,
happened. In the late 1980s and early 90s, a new "audience" arose. They
came (so I am told, by Those Who Know) from the sports card market,
where they had raped and pillaged that industry almost into the ground.
Looking for some new "collectibles" that could harvest, they settled on
comics, and suddenly success was not about talent, success was about
who was Chosen, who was deemed "Hot". Sometimes there was talent,
and real, solid talent. But too often, talent seemed to be the last thing the
collectors, the speculators wanted. They didn't want to have to think
about good art, or good storytelling. A number of artists -- Rob Liefeld
as the veritable poster child -- dropped right into this slot, with what
Terry Austin aptly dubbed "monthly portfolios". When they came out
monthly.
Then that bubble burst, and the speculators moved on (again, as I am
told) to the toy market, which they have similarly devastated.
There are clear reasons artist like Liefeld became suddenly so "Hot", but
to attribute it to talent is like a surfer taking credit for the wave. |
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I don't think you can entirely write off the entire audience as those who
moved on from trading cards--there were an awful lot of KIDS that
bought those early Image comics. You could see that from the lines at
conventions and the letters which poured in by the truckload. It was
fanned, quite a bit, by the Levis ad which was as much a plug for Rob
Liefeld and X-Force as it was for 501s. It was "comics BY kids FOR kids."
for a while there.
All companies took advantage (or tried to) of the influx of young and old
"investors." Every company spit out superheroes and new universes and
multiple covers and gold foil covers with trading cards in place.
The killing blow was the "Return of Superman" which was oversold to
retailers with the idea that it would be as big of a media event as the
"Death of Superman." The "Return of Superman" went largely unsold
(readers had, as it turned out, already read plenty comics in which
Superman was living--his return was not a big deal to them) and stores
that anticipated a deluge and ordered accordingly were wiped out.
(A couple years prior a similar event came about with X-Men #1. There
were five versions--shipped on consecutive weeks. The first week went
okay but subsequent copies of #1 went unsold. I was told that a fifth of
the stores at the time went out of business because of X-Men #1).
The nail in the coffin came when investors tried to cash in on their
investments. With sales in the millions--these books didn't stand a
chance. Few books retained any real value (Spawn fared well--most
others did not). When it became clear that there wasn't a lot of money to
be made these guys fled the scene.
"Talent" may be a tricky word to use but I think it applies in a sense--it's
a "talent" to draw things in a way to compel people to buy your book. We
might not agree that Rob has ARTISTIC talent--but he still had a knack
for getting kids to look at his stuff and a knack for self-promotion which
made him into a comic book super star.
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Nathan Greno
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 9154
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | 8
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Oh Liefeld! You've done it again! LOL!
 
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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 9
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"Sunfire?!! The fire-wielding mutant!?!"
Wow.
That wasn't at all clumsy.
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Nathan Greno
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2006
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Posts: 9154
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 10
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Erik Larsen:
"Sunfire?!! The fire-wielding mutant!?!"
Wow.
That wasn't at all clumsy.
----------
I thought people might slam the horrible swipe in that panel... but ok... the dialogue sucks too... whatever...
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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 6:48pm | IP Logged | 11
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The swipe is a given.
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Steven Cassidy
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Posts: 611
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | 12
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So -- if Rob gave a "thanks to John Byrne" or "thanks to Joe Blow" credit at the beginning of each book -- and then sent a design fee to Joe Blow for a swiped panel -- that would make everythig he does legit and okay, right?
How does he get away with this?
I read Erics posts - but it still makes no sense. He might sell books, but wouldn't his name associated with a comic lable cheapen the brand of that lable, "Oh, Brand X comics uses Leifeld -- I'm not buying their crappy books anymore..." Obviously what he brings to the table (numbers) must outweigh what he drives away.
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Topic Closed)
