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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16506
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | 1
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Peter wrote:
| ...Now, like it or not, Liefeld sells.... |
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Liefeld sold well. Not so much anymore.
His work actually hurts sales these days. The "Teen Titans" issues he drew killed the momentum on the series, and "Onslaught Reborn" underperformed. At least, this is the case at my shop (and has been the case since the late 1990's). I wonder if other retailers have experienced the same?
Edited by Matt Hawes on 28 February 2008 at 2:55pm
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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | 2
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Steven Cassidy wrote:
If Rob's so bad - how did he get hired by Marvel or DC (where ever he
satrted) ? |
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Rob was an artist "with potential." Editors saw that potential and assumed
he would improve over time. His early work owed more to George Perez
and there were a lot more panels involved. He was putting a lot of effort
into his pages even if they were somewhat stiff and awkward.
He became something else entirely--and many readers embraced what
he became--so he kept getting work.
One could argue that Todd was terrible as well--and that his early
writing was incredibly amateurish--but it's hard to argue with a million
readers. Few publishers would have to intestinal fortitude to bounce a
creator who's producing a million-selling book because they felt the title
wasn't well-executed.
It comes down to simple commerce. If Fabio sells more romance books
than other romance authors-- it is in the best interest of the publisher to
hire Fabio.
And yes--it does lead to an unfortunate lowering of the quality bar--it
does lead to the dumbing down of a generation--but if the goal is selling
more comics and that's what the audience is buying--that's hard to pass
up.
One could argue that the proliferation of McDonald's restaurants had led
to the decline in the overall culinary quality in the United States--that
people would eat in better restaurants if McDonald's didn't exist. Are we
obliged to install rules to control them or do we let the free market
decide?
Editors choose who they want to have write and draw their comics all the
time. They're constantly making aesthetic decisions based on little
information. Often these guys are no more informed than anybody here.
Sometimes it's a situation where they're saying, "hey--this looks a little
like Art Adams--I love Art Adams but can't get work out of Art Adams--I
should hire THIS guy."
Which brings us right back around to swiping and why it's often NOT
discouraged. If an editor wants Joe Mad and can't get Joe Mad to
produce--he'll go to the nearest Joe Mad impersonator and hope the
audience won't know the difference.
Edited by Erik Larsen on 28 February 2008 at 3:06pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133577
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | 3
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Superheroes are all about timing. The superhero genre was launched in the late 1930s, early 40s, when the Nation was ready for something big and bold and brash (and easy to read). Coming out of the shadow of the Depression, superheroes were just what we needed.We needed them even more as we plunged into another shadow, the Second World War. And they were there, and more popular than ever.* After the War, interest in superheroes waned, until the Big Three -- Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman -- were pretty much all that were left. Until the 1950s brought a new shadow, a new kind of paranoia, and a renewed need for heroes that were heroes, clean and crisp and no shadows at all. The pummeling out native consciousness took in the Cold War made it hard to keep those kinds of flames burning bright, tho, and to no great surprise (looking back) a new kind of superhero came along, "darker" and more human. That brought a new "golden age" for a decade or so, until the whole publishing industry began to decline. Then the worst thing that could have happened, happened. In the late 1980s and early 90s, a new "audience" arose. They came (so I am told, by Those Who Know) from the sports card market, where they had raped and pillaged that industry almost into the ground. Looking for some new "collectibles" that could harvest, they settled on comics, and suddenly success was not about talent, success was about who was Chosen, who was deemed "Hot". Sometimes there was talent, and real, solid talent. But too often, talent seemed to be the last thing the collectors, the speculators wanted. They didn't want to have to think about good art, or good storytelling. A number of artists -- Rob Liefeld as the veritable poster child -- dropped right into this slot, with what Terry Austin aptly dubbed "monthly portfolios". When they came out monthly. Then that bubble burst, and the speculators moved on (again, as I am told) to the toy market, which they have similarly devastated. There are clear reasons artist like Liefeld became suddenly so "Hot", but to attribute it to talent is like a surfer taking credit for the wave.
*Even with paper drives scooping them up and shredding them, and inadvertently creating lots of "rare and collectible" commodities for future generations.
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Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2799
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | 4
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--but it's hard to argue with a million readers.
****************
If only that were true. The million I can't argue but even I'm guilty of having bought more than one issue of the same comic(a looooooong time ago).
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133577
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:12pm | IP Logged | 5
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…it's hard to argue with a million readers.
••
"Readers"?
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Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2799
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | 6
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Could we even have the boom's of the early days who's success was so closely tied to the war effort(s)? It seemed everyone was really patriotic in those days and now it would just be racially insensitive to have Captain America kicking the teeth in of Bin Laden.
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Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 7
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When Rob started on Hawk & Dove at DC, I first thought, this guy is going to be a star. I really did. Then, at Marvel, with his What if and New Mutants, I thought this guy might be the next Art Adams (Mentioned above?). But with X-Force and image shortly thereafter, it seemed that any chance of Rob becoming what I thought he might become was over, like the coaching stopped. Lee was so much better, and his inker really helped him, but Liefeld just stalled, and today his work is bad. It's kind of sad, like a kid with potential never finished learning how to draw. And this is not a knock, I bought his stuff, but I no longer buy his work, because it's not good.
Edited by Ted Pugliese on 28 February 2008 at 3:18pm
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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 8
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John Byrne wrote:
…it's hard to argue with a million readers.
••
"Readers"? |
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Okay, "buyers" (and that includes retailers "stocking up"). The point is that a
LOT of copies were being sold and Marvel was making a LOT of money from
this title.
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Steven Cassidy
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Posts: 611
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 9
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I wasn't saying Neal was ever a bad artist -- I just was saying that there are some stylings he tried (in his youth) where you look at it and go -- "what it this guy drawing?". I think Neal is one of the best ever. The difference here is that Neal tried new things and kept improving -- where guys like Rob just find a style and let it stagnate.
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:45pm | IP Logged | 10
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a renewed need for heroes that were heroes, clean and crisp and no shadows at all.
Is it naive and dumb to wish that more 'heroes' were being published today?
(Sorry for the thread drift <g>)
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Aaron Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | 11
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It's not naive and dumb at all. I think a lot of us here feel the same way.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:51pm | IP Logged | 12
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Not dumb or naive, just optimistic.
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Topic Closed)
