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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6509
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 1
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That universe is where Scioli's mind has chosen to inhabit, and he's
operating within the visual landscape as if, indeed, he stepped through
a Boom Tube and was himself transformed into a Kirby character, at once
more handsome, dynamic, and distinct that at any other point in his
life.
And I'm going to argue that, indeed, Scioli is not "aping" Kirby.
He's literalizing his concept of the Kirbyverse...not channeling,
but wondering what would happen...just what would happen if Ben Boxer
became the Silver Surfer, within the rules of the Kirbyverse. The air,
as breathed from a Kirby pen. The sidewalk, poured and solidified from
Kirby's pen. Cosmic tripwires and massive god-like accounting...as
Kirby saw it and "lived" it. ***
Which in sum means "it works for you" -- but it in no way argues that the guy is not aping Kirby. The only way it could is if you actually mean he captures Kirby's essence by copying so many of Kirby's ticks.
Assuming that "aping" means something along the lines of "like an ape pretends to be a man by putting on his clothes and pretending" -- Godland and all you appear to like about it can be nothing but aping. The notion that Kirby is a "genre" is ridiculous -- what falls closer to being a member of this "genre" -- JB's FF or Godland? They can't both fit. What else besides Kirby's work and Godland would fall into this supposed genre?
It may be that the artist frames his imitation of Kirby this way to himself, but it doesn't make any sense in the real world. His page layout and storytelling are so lacking compared to Kirby-- does he feel he's actually working in this new genre when his work is so beneath that of his idol? If Kirby is a genre, wouldn't stuff have to be approximately as good as his to actually be considered to fall under his umbrella? It can't just "want" to be as good.
Chad, I enjoy your thoughts everywhere I encounter them. Here, I find your opinion surprising (underlining how little I actually know you). Do you really buy this "Kirby is a genre" idea?
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Trevor Giberson Byrne Robotics Chronology
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 1888
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | 2
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Mark Haslett wrote:
The notion that Kirby is a "genre" is ridiculous |
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Considering
how many people draw in the 70s Kirby style, the idea that Kirby is a
genre might have some merit. If enough people are working in that
style, it pretty much becomes a genre. At least a sub-genre (steampunk
for example). I quite like the idea. Kirby as a genre. Damn, that's
a pretty cool idea.... yeah, the more I think about it, the more I like
it!
And it's not just the art... these people are trying to write Kirby-esque fantasy, too. Neat!
Edited by Trevor Giberson on 21 February 2008 at 9:49pm
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George Massou Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008 Posts: 14
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | 3
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Great post Chad!! I totally agree with you..very eloquently put by the way!
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Paul Greer Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 18 August 2004 Posts: 14190
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 10:19pm | IP Logged | 4
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I had the chance to speak with Tom Scioli at this past Mid-Ohio Con and he talked about trying to evolve into his own style while keeping the Kirby elements he likes doing. The past two issues of Godland show him clearly trying to be a different artist. The first try didn't click for me, but the last issue was a much better attempt. I won't say he is the most skilled artist, but I enjoy Godland more for its attempt at trying crazy ideas that one wouldn't find in most modern comics. Since he is a relative newcomer to the business I hope he continues to evolve and become his own man and not just a Kirby wanabee. Certain elements in his work lead me to believe he will be in a few more years.
Chad's "Kirby as a genre" is a concept that is discussed quite often in The Jack Kirby Collector. They always give examples how the Kirby style is used in the art world.
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4887
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 10:56pm | IP Logged | 5
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The first time I could remember an artist trying to ape another artist was when Marvel had Rich Buckler drawing the Fantastic Four in a style similar to Kirby's.
I was pretty young at the time time, but looking back I think they did Buckler a huge disservice. His early work on the Avengers [issues #101-104] looks a lot like Neal Adams' work in hindsight and it makes me wonder if they had asked him to ape Adams as well.
And personally, I think Buckler is a fine artist who would have done a terrific job drawing in his own style - his Deathlok stories in Astonishing Tales are beautifully done, and his run on Jungle Action ['Panther's Rage'] is a classic.
It's a shame he got the reputation of an artist who tried to ape other styles when all he was doing was giving the company what they wanted [and what they thought the fans wanted].
Buckler's Kirbyish Fantastic Four -
Buckler's Deathlok -
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Anthony J Lombardi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 9410
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | 6
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I can understand from a certain point about Liefeld and Jack Kirby. But a major difference is that Kirby was fantastic at page composition. Plus he did know how to draw really well. He choose to draw the way we are familar with.
I'm sure Rob Liefeld must have worked real hard in the beginning so i won't take that away from him. But he was lucky to be in the right place at the right time. Which got him the level of success he has had over his career.
Edited by Anthony J Lombardi on 21 February 2008 at 11:11pm
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Ron Chevrier Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1641
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 11:17pm | IP Logged | 7
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I don't know much about Tom Scioli, but I'm guessing that he's a relative newcomer on the comics scene? While neither praising nor condemning Godland (don't know how to make the little strikeout om the "o"), I don't read the title myself, I gather he has a strong affinity for the work of Jack Kirby. If he has to get his Kirby ya-yas out of his system early on in his career, I see nothing wrong with that, and will give him some slack, so long as years down the road, his work has evolved into something quite different. Much the same way Bill Sienkiewicz started off as an almost line-by-line clone of Neal Adams, arguably the most commercial-looking comic artist around, and eventually became a much more experimental and expressionistic illustrator.
If Scioli is working the same obvious Kirby riffs 5 or ten years from now, then I would probably be a little more harsh regarding his work.
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2711
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 11:46pm | IP Logged | 8
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Keep in mind something here, gang. When we talk about the Jack Kirby of
the 1960s, we're discussing a 40-year old plus man who'd been drawing
(and writing) comics for more than 20 years. That's two decades worth of
time developing his craft before a lot of us really started paying attention.
By the time Neal Adams got into funny books, although he was just in his
late 20s, he had spent more than three years designing and drawing the
daily Ben Casey comic strip. That's a lot of work in a short time, and
some hard-earned craftsmanship before we started gushing over his
comics.
The point is guys like Kirby and Adams had drawn A LOT before the time
fans got to the point of going "Wow!" They'd figured out what worked and
more importantly what didn't. They'd each developed an individual style
and were so comfortable with their talent that they could experiment and
innovate.
How many comics did Sterenko draw? Yet we hail almost all of them as
gems. I don't know much about Jim's pre-comics history, but he must
have gotten his 5,000 bad drawings out of his system somewhere along
the line.
The commonality of these three gentlemen, among others I could name?
They produced work that was unique, that had style and pushed the
envelope. The didn't photo reference porn stars. The didn't swipe 20 and
30 year old comics. The didn't produce work that made you think of some
other artist.
The industry needs more individuals and fewer clones.
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Paul Kimball Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2207
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:07am | IP Logged | 9
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I love much of Kirby's work. I don't believe someone can have a heir unless that artist has a literal, tangible crown that they pass on to another artist along with a royal seal.
I very much enjoy Godland.
For me, those 2 feelings don't conflict, although I can see for others it does. Each to their own.
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Paul Kimball Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2207
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:11am | IP Logged | 10
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I do have a rookie question, apologies if this is idiotic but I have little to no ability to draw and hence don't know....
Is it possible to grow up reading someone like Kirby and your own work becomes so much like his that this becomes your style as well? In other words, you're no longer consciously imitating? I ask because unless Tom Scioli has been seen to drawn in another manner on something other than godland, maybe that's just his style?
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:25am | IP Logged | 11
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" I ask because unless Tom Scioli has been seen to drawn in another manner on something other than godland, maybe that's just his style?"
Let's look at an analogy in music. Elvis had a way of singing that was based on his vocal range, his influences and his personality. As he matured as a singer that style developed into what we all recognize as the distinctive "Elvis" sound. One that is constantly imitated by hundreds and that has influenced thousands.
Now if an artist comes along and sings in a style almost indistinguishable from (although not as technically accomplished as) the "Elvis" sound, whether it is the "natural" style of someone heavily influenced by Elvis or someone trying very hard to sound like Elvis is immaterial. Either way he will be viewed as and judged as an Elvis imitator.
Same with Scioli. Regardless of why he draws like Kirby, there is no reason to consider him anything but a Kirby-imitator. (To view him as anything but is what would require mind-reading on our part.)
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Thanos Kollias Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2004 Location: Greece Posts: 5009
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:44am | IP Logged | 12
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I think it's a bad thing when one artist outright copies the work of another artist and tries to pass it as his own. That's what Liefeld felt like doing to me. The bad part is that, imo, Liefeld did this because he couldn't do it on his own.
When John Byrne does the occasional FF # 1 cover variation or the Kang page posted some posts above, it's obvious that the artist doesn't do it because he can't do it in his style but that he wants people to reference the original composition. If we take this further, JB did a similar thing in the first XMTHY issue with the flashback scenes. They were specifically drawn the way they were to resemble X-Men # 138. Are those swipes? What would be the point? Is there anyone who really thinks John couldn't draw them completely new, from different perspective? I don't think so...
As for Buckler, I think he aped more than Neal Adams during his brief Avengers run. He also copied a lot of John Buscema, especially evident in the issue Wanda is abducted by a Sentinel. His Wanda is almost exactly drawn to resemble Big John's version durin the Arikn two parter a few years before.
I think Buckler was a reasonably talented artist that could deliver his own style successfully to the titles he was working on, but this aping was a big disservice, to himself.
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