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Robert Cosgrove Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1710
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Posted: 15 August 2006 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | 1
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"I have heard that while Kirby
wanted the return of his art from Marvel, when running his own studio/
company, he kept all the artwork of artists working for him based on the
very same work-for-hire reasons that were in place at the time and that
Marvel used as justification for keeping his work. If true, that's always
sounded more than a little hypocritical to me."
Let's assume that this is true, for the sake of argument (indeed, this is a
discussion, in a somewhat different form, that this forum has seen
before). Here are a few things to keep in mind before you brand Kirby as
hypocritical. First, Kirby's company, Crestwood, essentially existed in the
early to mid fifties. At that time, there was no market for original art, at
least none that the artists were aware of. This attitude continued into at
least the mid-sixties. For an example, see the Joe Kubert interview by
Ronn Foss in Alter-Ego #6, conducted about '66 or '67, in which Foss
inquires as to whether Kubert got any of his original art back, and Kubert
responds that he hasn't, adding that he's never bothered to ask, his
feeling being that the publisher bought the art. [As a side note, it may well be that the Crestwood art was destroyed, much as DC destroyed old original art on a routine basis].
Sometime in the sixties, fandom created a market for original art, at first
quite a modest one--I bought my first page of original art in 1968, an
Infantino Flash page, for about five dollars. In the late sixties, artists like
Jim Steranko pushed for return of their own original art, and Neal Adams
led a crusade, joined by others, for the return of original artwork
generally. Companies eventually switched policies and began returning
original art, and that art had value (to varying degrees) in the
marketplace. I doubt Joe Kubert maintained his position, at that point,
that he didn't want his original art back.
Starting in the lates sixties or early seventies, Kirby sold a lot of his own
original art. If he sold, anytime in the sixties or later, a page of art done
by another artist for Crestwood (as Bill Gaines sold virtually all of the EC
art, though reportedly he gave the artists a cut), I am unaware of it.
Kirby may have asked for his own original art back from DC and Marvel
prior to the late sixties (when art was routinely not returned) but if so, I
am not aware of that either. Finally, I have yet to hear a single reported
case of an artist who worked for Kirby's company, requested his art back,
and was told that Kirby was retaining it. Perhaps that story is out there,
but I haven't heard it.
So you can say that Kirby was not ahead of his time in returning original
art to artists back in the fifties, when virtually no one was doing so. What
I don't think you say is that he was a hypocrite for asking for his original
art back at a time when the companies were routinely returning original
art.
Put it another way: if your father ran his own company in the 50's and he
didn't have a 401k plan for his employees, would he be a hypocrite for
asking to participate in a 401k plan that a company he worked for in
2006 offered? (The analogy isn't quite exact, in that it was impossible to
have a 401k plan in the 50's and it was possible to return original art,
though I'm not aware that anyone did, but it's pretty close). If Jack ran his
own company in the 90's and refused to return original art, then I'd say
you could fairly tag him for being hypocritical.
Edited by Robert Cosgrove on 15 August 2006 at 8:46pm
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4649
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Posted: 15 August 2006 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | 2
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As far as I know the only time Kirby was running a studio was when he worked with Joe Simon, roughly circa 1940-58. Presumably the refusal to return artwork which Matt alludes to would have happened during that time. So, even if the stories are true, it's hardly an apples to apples comparison, holding Kirby to eighties standards in the fifties. In the forties and fifties, no one got their original art back, and I doubt artists typically even asked for it back. And the art itself had no resale value. Whereas in 1986 it had become standard practice to return art and all artists willing to sign the work for hire document got their art back from Marvel, but Kirby was singled out and asked to sign a four-page document no other creator was asked to sign in order to get his work back. Besides that, it is more likely Simon would have been responsible for any policies about original art, since from what I've read he was the business head of the team.
But yeah, I'd be curious to hear if there are artists who worked for them who say they specifically asked for their original art back and were told "no." I'm skeptical of that. Why would the S/K studio even care whether the art was given back or not? I'm guessing no one even asked for their art, and this is just a case of someone saying "well, the Simon and Kirby studio didn't initiate a policy of giving back original art in the fifties (regardless of whether anyone was asking for it), so Kirby had no right to complain about not getting his art back in the eighties." Which is ridiculous.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 15 August 2006 at 9:57pm
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Joe Mayer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 January 2005 Posts: 1397
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Posted: 15 August 2006 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | 3
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I don't get this nay to imported questions thing, but to each their own. All the time someone says something that gets me to wondering, or asks a question that I don't know the answer but interests me enough to go asking of other people. Maybe it is due to my background in training and adult education, but I see it as part of the learning process. I thought it would be better to answer an imported question rather than let someone else on another board answer it and be forced to accept that as the truth. Just my 2 cents.
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Chris Hutton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 11667
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Posted: 15 August 2006 at 10:36pm | IP Logged | 4
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Look, I have a friend who always wants me to ask his "stacked" questions for JB. He has that whole "old stuff= better" agenda, and also doesn't care for JB's straightforwardness. But I don't do that. EVER.
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2711
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Posted: 15 August 2006 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | 5
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I believe there was an issue of The Jack Kirby Collector that addressed this topic. I'll poke through my copies later tonight to see if I can turn up anything.
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Jon Godson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005 Posts: 2468
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Posted: 15 August 2006 at 11:43pm | IP Logged | 6
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Well, SOMEBODY got Kirby's work. I've seen for sale at conventions.
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2711
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Posted: 15 August 2006 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | 7
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Original art was given away to M***** Bullpen visitors in the 1960s and 1970s. And a lot of stuff just walked out the door over the years when people began to realize it was worth something. If my recollection is correct, when Kirby requested the return of his original art, M***** could only account for about 20 percent of the work he produced during his Silver Age tenure (finding about 2,100 pages out of nearly 10,000 pages). Which, in itself, is a staggering number.
Edited to expand my recollection. Re-edited to correct the art page numbers. See my subsequent post below.
Edited by Matthew McCallum on 16 August 2006 at 12:20am
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3121
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Posted: 16 August 2006 at 12:03am | IP Logged | 8
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When Marvel first presented Kirby with their expanded retroactive work
for hire agreement, they offered him a sum total of Kirby 88 pages of
his Sixties work in return. That rounds up to something like zero
percent of Kirby's Marvel output.
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2711
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Posted: 16 August 2006 at 12:15am | IP Logged | 9
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Okay, here's a partial answer to the main question of this thread, pulled from an interview JB gave in Issue 12 of The Jack Kirby Collector (reprinted in Volume 2 of The Collected Jack Kirby Collector, page 129):
"...What is difficult for many people nowadays to imagine is that the artists didn't want the artwork back. There was no market for it. What were they supposed to do with it? And it is important to remember that comics are, after all, an extension in a way of the commercial and advertising art fields, and there is no return of artwork there. The up-front money is considered a buy-out..."
"...I thought it was particularly two-faced when they [ DC ] took out a full page 'open letter' in various trades demanding Marvel return Jack's artwork. The only reason DC was not in the same position as Marvel, after all, was that Marvel had a policy of warehousing the artwork it kept, while DC gave it away or destroyed it."
I'm not about to transcribe the full interview; there are additional details by JB about the treatment of Siegel and Shuster, Kane, Ditko and others. It's two pages long and an interesting read.
Edited by Matthew McCallum on 16 August 2006 at 12:44am
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2711
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Posted: 16 August 2006 at 12:41am | IP Logged | 10
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And on the topic of missing Kirby artwork, there is an article by Glen Gold entitled "The Stolen Art" in Issue 19 of The Jack Kirby Collector (reprinted in Volume 4 of The Collected Jack Kirby Collector, pages 212-213).
The article details how DC had a policy to destroy original art to ensure copyright protection, the legal argument being that if an artist claimed ownership of the art, he might have a crack at owning the character. (Which offers a rationale why M***** was hesitant to return pages to Kirby.)
It goes on to report that most of the art that Kirby drew for Timely/M***** prior to 1960 was discarded to make room for new Silver Age art that was warehoused during the M***** years until the company began returning art in 1974. Of the nearly 10,000 pages Kirby drew during the 1960s, only 2,100 were accounted for and returned to him in 1987. (It's my understanding that writers, inkers, letterers and colourists also get a portion of the original art returned to them. The article is unclear how many pages if any from the 10,000 went to Kirby co-creators.)
So, what happened to the remainder? The story concludes much of the art was stolen, providing details on how items from the M***** master list of warehoused art began showing up for sale at New York conventions. The corporation was asked to step in and get the art back, but they claimed their master list of holdings wasn't accurate and they couldn't prove the art was in fact stolen. (Which, considering prior to 1974 that original art was oft-times given away, is an understandable position for M***** to take if accurate records were not maintained.)
Again, an interesting article and well worth a read.
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Dwayne Ferguson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 788
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Posted: 16 August 2006 at 1:46am | IP Logged | 11
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Also if memory serves Marvel was willing to give Kirby his artwork all he had to do was sign something that basicly reaffirmed that the creations he obviously did as work for hire were indeed work for hire. It seems clear to me that if left unchecked Kirby might have pulled a Seigal and Shuster with Marvel and they were just protecting their interests.
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Matt Timson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 June 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 60
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Posted: 16 August 2006 at 4:50am | IP Logged | 12
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"This is, by the way, going to be my response to "imported" questions, from
now on"
So it doesn't matter that people who *do* post here are now intrigued
enough to want to know the answer themselves? What difference does it
make where the question originated? It's been asked, it's an interesting
question and I'm sure that there's an equally interesting story behind the
answer.
Remember kids- don't import questions- just lie and say that you thought
them up all on your own!
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