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Jon Godson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 January 2005
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | 1
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So I got a mild chuckle out of that. But I'm not spending $75 for this.
*****************
Me either. I'll buy it at Overstock for $44.89.
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Robert Oren
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 March 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1209
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | 2
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"Chariots of the Gods". ...............i'm going to have to read that one i never knew he took it from there!!!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134007
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | 3
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A lot of people have been posting in this thread (Mr. Byrne included) saying much the same things Mr. Gaiman is saying. The Eternals is not widely considered to be one of Kirby's great works, even though it has on display a number of brilliant Kirby concepts.*** When did I say that?
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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 4
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I think there's a difference between saying a creator got it wrong versus critiquing a work. For example, I'm a Kirby fan who thinks the man's dialogue was dreadful. I get a feeling I'm not alone on this. What's wrong with saying I like X part of his work but not Y part?
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Connie Lynn
Byrne Robotics Member
Requested Cancelation
Joined: 22 March 2005
Posts: 44
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 5
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In this and the other thread on The Eternals, I've not seen you say anything positive about The Eternals. I've seen you criticize the wonky Continuity Kirby used, you tend to compare it (somewhat unfavorably) to New Gods, and reading your first post in this thread about "Chariots Of The Gods", I get the distinct impression that you don't think terribly highly of its influences.
So, after seeing lots of almost or slightly negative statements about The Eternals and having seen *no* positive statements about The Eternals, I'm left ot believe that this is a book that you don't feel very warmly toward. And I don't think it's much of a leap to suggest that you would think there are elements that are flawed in its creation--others certainly have suggested (and you have not countered) that it's a second-rate New Gods... something reinforced with your twice refusing to work on the book. What I'm seeing in your posts and others is that's it's not Kirby at his best and there's some serious problems with it.
Now, if this isn't true, I apologize; but I don't see anything in your posts about this book that would suggest that you really like it. Your complaints might not be exactly the same as Mr. Gaiman's, but it does seem as though there is something about this title that prevents it from being one of your favorites.
And after reading the above extract from Mr. Gaiman (and the rest of the interview), I don't see where he doesn't have anything but respect for the source material. He believes that it was Marvel's fault that it read strangely, as there seems to be many things un-Kirby getting shoe-horned into the narrative, such as the almost-but-not-quite ties to the Marvel Universe that make it read very strangely.
Again, it might be an omission. You might love the book, and because you haven't said as much, your minor criticisms have colored my (mis)perception. And if that's the case, I apologize, but I'm still not seeing much Eternals love here and find it odd that many have turned on Mr. Gaiman for saying much the same that is said here... that this book isn't a perfect example of Kirbyness.
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Simon Matthew Park
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 2156
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | 6
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Connie - Based on the quotes from Gaiman upthread, I'd say that Gaiman is the one who is being disparaging about the Eternals, and about Jack Kirby. The way I read it, it sounds like Gaiman thinks he's somehow improving upon (or even correcting 'mistakes' in) Kirby's original concept.
I'm a fan of Kirby's Eternals - I prefer them to the Fourth World stuff (which I also like, don't get me wrong). It also sounds, based on the comments quoted upthread, as if Gaiman wasn't even interested in the characters to begin with. If Kirby got things wrong, why are his characters being revived decades later by Gaiman? I'm not sure anyone will resurrect the Technophage or Lady Justice thirty years from now.
Also, although Von Daniken's stuff was ridiculous as a work of scientific or archeological study, it was (in my opinion) a clever (if sneaky) way of writing an entertaining work of science-fiction. As has been pointed out by someone earlier in this thread, Von Daniken was obviously influenced by 'The Shaver Mystery', in which tales of an interplanetary civilization who built Atlantis are told, and are supposedly meant to be 'true'. They're a great fun read as well, by the way (Invasion of the Micro-Men rocks!).
Certainly, Kirby wasn't doing anything that was unprecedented, but he was definitely giving an old idea the Kirby treatment. He'd done similar things before anyhow, with The Inhumans and The Kree, so it's still a very Kirbyesque type of concept. I don't see it as being 'less Kirby' than anything else he did, personally.
edited for spelling atrocities.
Edited by Simon Matthew Park on 28 June 2006 at 8:01pm
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Eric Lund
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2074
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 8:12pm | IP Logged | 7
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I'm not buying Gaiman's Eternals...it holds zero interest for me...
I liked Gaiman's Sandman... and bought it from issue 1 when it wasn't kewl to like him...
I looked at the first issue and none of it looked appealing compared to what Kirby had done...I think it deviates way too far away from Kirby's vision of The Eternals... Kirby made them look otherwordly and Romita has them looking like superheroes
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3147
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | 8
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What I get from Gaiman's statement is that he doesn't think ETERNALS
was a 100% sucessful project, an in, "Kirby didn't quite nail it with
this one." I'm looking forward to reading it -- not least because
I hope the hardcover is really sucessful and encourages more high
quality Kirby reprints -- but from what I've heard, this isn't Kirby in
absolutely perfect mode, the way he was on NEW GODS. Gaiman
sounds like he's coming from his old position as a critic. He's
analysing Kirby's work, not dismissing it.
Edited by David Miller on 28 June 2006 at 8:38pm
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Bob Simko
Byrne Robotics Security
Negative Mod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 5981
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | 9
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It's one thing to say "I think there are more stories to tell"...it's another thing to say that Jack Kirby didn't get his own creations quite right.
Call me curious, but how the f*ck would Gaiman know what Kirby did or didn't get right?
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Howard Boyer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 February 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 44
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 10:14pm | IP Logged | 10
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Problem is, we now have a high percentage of "Winkers" in the business...
Change one letter, and I'd agree with you...
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Jason Uresti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 February 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 72
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 10:57pm | IP Logged | 11
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I think people are getting stuck on the word choice. By saying he didn't get it right, many of you are taking it that Gaiman means that Kirby messed up with creating these characters, that it was a flawed concept.
Reading the entire quote, it seems obvious to me that Gaiman refers to the story itself, not the concept and characters. He feels that Kirby didn't execute his idea as strongly as these ideas demanded. No great criticism, and he even goes as far to put the blame for that on others and not Kirby himself.
Roger Federer is perhaps the greatest overall tennis talent in the history of the game. He can hit all the shots. All his mechanics are sound, his technique is about as precise as you can find. But you know what? He has matches where he doesn't quite put it all together the "right" way. He will still hit some brilliant strokes, and the genius of his game will be there, but his gameplan won't be up to task, maybe his backhand starts landing short, whatever the reason, while he may be the greatest ever, on that day, that series of play, he is NOT the greatest in the world.
Like Federer, Kirby below his best, or even worst, is still pretty incredible, but just like Roger has some matches and tournaments, he has his share of issues/series that aren't grand slams, and are not beyond criticism.
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Todd Hembrough
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 4171
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| Posted: 28 June 2006 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | 12
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bob simko wrote:
It's one thing to say "I think there are more stories to
tell"...it's another thing to say that Jack Kirby didn't get his own
creations quite right.
Call me curious, but how the f*ck would Gaiman know what Kirby did or didn't get right? |
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Steven Spielberg didnt get it quite right on "1941". Just wasnt up to his standard, he miscast some popular actors in a story that just didnt work.
Is this in anyway an offensive or risable statement? If not, why would it be so when the target is Kirby?
I am having difficulty getting it with the venom, and I am not coming at it from the perspective of a Gaiman sycophant. The art of criticism in literature is based on the idea that one can assess an artists work and then judge it. Even moreso when the judge is a fellow artist, not a layman.
Edited by Todd Hembrough on 28 June 2006 at 11:16pm
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