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Scott Rowland Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 166
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Posted: 28 July 2006 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 1
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Well, the quote was from an extensive letter in Collector's Dream #4, the Spring 1978 issue and Gruenwald has a New York address attached to the letter, so I would imagine he was at least 18.
And regardless of his age when he wrote the comment, it does show disrespect for Kirby. Personally, I'm just very disappointed that a) I actually stumbled across a "name" referring to Kirby in such terms in print, b) that it was someone whom I had previously thought well of, and c) it was someone who worked so much with Kirby characters.
I'm not saying we need to judge his whole life on something
he wrote once. It doesn't mean he kept that attitude for the rest of his life, but
it is something to keep in mind reading other things he wrote or said, especially at the time. And of course, I was just using him as an example of why it's important to take into account the source of information. Otherwise, you may as well just use wikipedia.
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3147
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Posted: 28 July 2006 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | 2
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Google suggests that Gruenwald was born in 1953, so he would have been
25 when that letter appeared. Which actually makes more sense
than if he'd been a teenager.
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Chad Carter Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 June 2005 Posts: 9584
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Posted: 28 July 2006 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | 3
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There's a reason it was called "Jack Kirby's ETERNALS". Because it's Jack Kirby's Eternals. His concept, his work, his idea, and when he left, it left. The only reason Marvel wants to produce another "Jack Kirby" product is in a vain attempt to "commemorate" the man while most likely robbing his family of any profits from those characters. I assume they're owned by the company and they can do what they want. I just don't care about the Eternals that Kirby didn't work on. It's a waste of Gaiman and Romita Jr. And this is the best title those two could be allowed to work on together? With as bad as, say, the FF is?
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Matt Linton Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 13 December 2005 Posts: 2022
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Posted: 28 July 2006 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | 4
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Considering Kirby's family is putting out a book through Marvel's Icon line right now, I doubt they feel like Marvel is "robbing" them. And I seem to remember that Gaiman came to Marvel with the desire to do the Eternals book, and I'd guess that JRjr probably has his pick of projects as well, so I don't think it's a case of their being "allowed" to work on it, rather, it's what they want to work on.
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Dave Carr Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1850
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Posted: 28 July 2006 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 5
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Chad Carter wrote:
The only reason Marvel wants to produce another "Jack Kirby" product is
in a vain attempt to "commemorate" the man while most likely robbing
his family of any profits from those characters. |
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Nice job, Charles Xavier.
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Chad Carter Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 June 2005 Posts: 9584
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Posted: 28 July 2006 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 6
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Um, it's a comic based on something Kirby scribbled down somewhere, I guess. I doubt anyone is going to make a big deal out of whether the Galactic Bounty Hunters turns out to be a mediocre rehash of Kirby ideas.
I've not had a chance to read the Eternals series from Simonson/Buscema back when. I want to, because it's Simonson/Buscema. There's the idea this series is "Kirby". The name is dropped. The connections are voiced, comparisons automatic.
Does the world need an Eternals comic? Or does it instead need a Gaiman/JRJR FF book? I mean, I'm not a fan of Gaiman but I'd still want to see what he could do with the FF. That means something to more than just the egos of the creators. The greatest Eternals comic Gaiman could come up with is a blip. The quality of the FF is important to the health of the industry. A great FF comic makes a difference, I feel.
I just wish Gaiman and other high-stature guys would help comics in general rather than picking over Kirby's corpse to lay claim to "improve" on his ideas. I understand the desire, but there are other ways to pay tribute to Kirby, if that's even a motivation for Gaiman. I'll give Morrison credit: at least he's willing to take on the much more difficult job of finding a great Batman than indulging in MARVEL BOY (which I still liked quite a bit). It's easy when nobody cares as opposed to something like Batman which affects and influences everything around it.
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3147
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Posted: 28 July 2006 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 7
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QUOTE:
Chad Carter wrote:
The only reason Marvel wants to produce another "Jack Kirby" product is
in a vain attempt to "commemorate" the man while most likely robbing
his family of any profits from those characters. |
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Nice job, Charles Xavier. |
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Not so fast. I wouldn't be surprised if a comittment to fucking
over Kirby*, his heirs, his memory and his creations was enshrined in
Marvel's corporate bylaws.
* Retroactively of course.
Edited by David Miller on 28 July 2006 at 6:09pm
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Matt Linton Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 13 December 2005 Posts: 2022
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Posted: 28 July 2006 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 8
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Morrison is also in the midst of Seven Soldiers, reviving, among other things, some of Kirby's concepts. I can understand the desire to see Gaiman and Romita jr on something other than the Eternals, and especially a high profile book (though I'd kill for the two of them to do a Dr. Strange or Thor series). But I'd rather they worked on something they want to work on, rather than doing something based on helping the industry. Plus, I think both have already done a great deal to help the industry (Gaiman with Sandman, a series that's still successful today in trades, and Romita jr for being both an outstanding artist, and a professional). If they want to spend half a year on something a bit more obscure I think that's fine.
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Scott Rowland Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 166
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Posted: 28 July 2006 at 8:12pm | IP Logged | 9
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Chad,
Do you feel the same way about people other than Stan Lee and Jack Kirby working on X-Men , or Fantastic Four? If not, what's the difference, since they're all owned by the company, not the creators?
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4655
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Posted: 28 July 2006 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | 10
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John Byrne wrote:
I can report that Jack was given carte blanche
until it was seen that sales were plummeting [snip] --whereupon the "real" Marvel Universe was
placed out of bounds, and he was given books like MACHINE MAN and DEVIL
DINOSAUR. |
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From what I've read, it was Kirby's demands for total creative freedom
that hurt him in this regard. If he'd been willing to work with a
writing collaborator, he probably could have had his pick of which
titles he'd like to work on. But his insistence on not working
with any collaborator marginalized him. I get the sense that to
some degree the "Jack the Hack" attitudes were partially sour
grapes. When he returned to Marvel everybody wanted to
collaborate with him (again according to Evanier) but he refused all
offers. Then the very people begging to ride on the coattails of
his plotting and artwork began calling him a hack.
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Karl Bollers Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 09 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 185
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Posted: 29 July 2006 at 12:03am | IP Logged | 11
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I think that one of the things that hurt Kirby's Eternals is how far away this book was from other Marvel (and DC) books of the day. How disappointed many readers (that were looking for the standard super-hero story) must have felt when they they would buy the Eternals with Ikaris in all of his super-hero glory on the cover of every issue, but after the comic was bought, the reader could not find him in costume in the story anywhere.
This happened in issues 1, 2, 5, 7, 8 & 13. *****
Agreed.
This is how I felt when I read the entire series several years back. THE ETERNALS was this big, terrific concept, yet it had a very unconventional story structure compared to the popular comics of the 1970s, including UNCANNY X-MEN. The series had a very large cast, so Jack's solution was rather than introduce them all in a single issue, he chose to introduce a few at a time and keep building the series.
Today's comics can take a year or more to introduce the principal characters in a given series (Sometimes that much time elapses before the characters even meet one another!). It's obvious that they are no longer catering to an audience of children, but rather an audience of adults (with allegedly longer attention spans).
THE ETERNALS was similar in this respect in that Kirby didn't feel too bothered to rush the story, and he was very much ahead of his time in trying write a comic book series this way, using an approach that would not be welcome for some thirty years, but the audience buying and reading THE ETERNALS weren't adults, they were children, and I can see how a kid could be disappointed by such an epic, wide-scale approach.
That leads me to believe that Kirby was given carte blanche on THE ETERNALS. If not, the editor would have probably dictated that the story structure be more conventional and that the plots be more obviously superheroic, in step with the rest of the Marvel line.
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Robert Oren Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 23 March 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1209
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Posted: 29 July 2006 at 7:19am | IP Logged | 12
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I wouldn't be surprised if a comittment to fucking over Kirby*
*****************************
is that word really necessary here? i can find that in any board out there!
Edited by Robert Oren on 29 July 2006 at 7:20am
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