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Brian Talley
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 31 July 2008 at 9:31pm | IP Logged | 1  

But Al.....I'm clueless......

 

Bwahahahahahahaahhh!!!!!

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Al Cook
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Joined: 21 December 2004
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Posted: 31 July 2008 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | 2  

To be continued! How exciting!

Well, I'm off to bed.
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Zaki Hasan
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Joined: 20 April 2004
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Posted: 31 July 2008 at 10:06pm | IP Logged | 3  

Wow.

Just wow.
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Mike Murray
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Posted: 31 July 2008 at 10:45pm | IP Logged | 4  

"Of course, that doesn't stop you from embarrassing yourselves in expressing even more ignorance than I assumed you had."

********************************

You've allowed your frustration to hurt your cause (if your cause is to convince anyone to listen to your message).  Obviously this is an issue that you feel strongly about.  If you really want to engage the public you can't stoop to making statements like the above.
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Daniel Gillotte
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Posted: 31 July 2008 at 11:17pm | IP Logged | 5  

"I hope you enjoy those teeny weeny feet & the feather cut hair, don't blame
me..."

Surprisingly, this is the comment that most hurts in this thread. You know
how to hurt a people, sir.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 1:06am | IP Logged | 6  

Bosch, you want to relentlessly champion truth, and that's good. So do I.

But the truth I see is far more complex. It comes in greytones and colours. Your truth, in black and white, gets some parts right and some parts wrong. When I talk about good propaganda being subtly laid out, with a complex arrangement of arguments and counter arguments, I'm not advocating deception, but effective rhetoric.  I'm not advocating constructing an enemy out of straw. It is only by defeating the best arguments of our opponents that we truly win.

To me, the simple truth you champion gives us an enemy made of straw. Somewhere in there is the real enemy, but it's a sharp poisonous needle in the haystack.

You don't defeat an ideology or religion just by attacking it from the outside. If they claim to be moral, you must show that there are better ways to be moral. If they claim to be more just, you must show them better justice. If they claim to serve the people best you must show them how the people are best served. If they claim that you hate them, you must show them that in reality your enemy is the same.

A lot of people in the middle east are duped into thinking that America and the West are the root cause of their problems. When in reality it is (in part) the fat, greedy princes that rule these countries and suck all the wealth out for their own decadence. Look at Osama in Saudi Arabia. The vast royal family lives in opulence while they treat their people like shit. Osama Bin Laden and his family are among the fat cats that are the real enemies of the Saudi people. But the US troops get all the blame. Partly because they're infidels in the Holy Land, but also partly because they're supporting a corrupt government in order to secure the oil supply and other strategic interests in the Middle East.  

And democracy can work in Islamic countries, but it has to have a solid wall between church and state just like in Turkey. (And I know, that's under heavy attack at the moment.)  Just like Christian countries should have a more rigorously defended separation between religion and state.

But on first glance, your Pigman plays into the worst fears and prejudices of moslems about the west being out on another crusade.  It is, to my view, counterproductive.  It's like trying to talk a crowd out of a frenzy while some guy jumps up and down behind you shouting "we're gonna kick your ass. We're gonna moiderize you!". 

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Mike Murray
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 1:18am | IP Logged | 7  

EDIT: Sorry, I just read the story in question. I had forgotten Pigman's origin, and that he's a Muslim himself - that answers the question I had posted here.

Edited by Mike Murray on 01 August 2008 at 1:23am
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Lars Johansson
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 1:22am | IP Logged | 8  

And democracy can work in Islamic countries, but it has to have a solid wall between church and state just like in Turkey.

In an Islamic country there is no solid wall between church and state. That is an impossibility.

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Emery Calame
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 5:49am | IP Logged | 9  

Good propaganda is about boling the frog slowly.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp

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Trevor Giberson
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 6:52am | IP Logged | 10  

 Trevor Giberson wrote:
Bosch, just to be clear... are you advocating that the United States of America makes it their mission to put an end to the religion of Islam worldwide, violently if necessary?


 Bosch Fawstin wrote:

Trevor,

All I expect from our government is to protect us by ending those who started this war. They should keep their mouths shut about theological matters they know nothing about, for what we get when they think they know more than they do is their telling us whoppers such as 'Islam means peace.' And they should realize that bringing democracy into the Muslim world will necessarily bring people to vote in their own Islamic dictatorships, which they have. As one particular scumbag from Hamas said: 'I want to thank America for giving us this weapon of democracy.' Everything in the hands of the enemy is weaponized: phones as detonators, cars as bombs, planes and missiles, and now democracy. I think it is the intellectuals, those who are counted on to seek the truth and to disseminate, who have sold us out and who have forced lone individuals from all walks of life to do their part in attempting to wake up their fellow Westerners that it is Islam's 'mission to put an end to' all other religions, philosophies and ways of life. Most of you that have responded here are the Enemy's useful idiots who cannot refute any of what I've written. Of course, that doesn't stop you from embarrassing yourselves in expressing even more ignorance than I assumed you had. That's what happens when the truth you avoid comes to you in an unhidden way, in a way unlike how Knut proposes to do so, to put one over on others, like a bait and switch. The truth doesn't hide or need to be hidden, even if people run from it. I can understand a little of what you wrote about propaganda, Knut, and appreciate some of it, but propaganda can be used to sell lies as well as truth and so is stigmatized by that fact. I'd much rather throw down the truth as naked as it is, regardless if you and others run from the sight of it. I love the truth, always have, and those who also do don't need to be seduced into it by misleading people into. Politicians do that, propagandists as well, not artists who can't stand the idea of bringing their truth to others in a way other than it is in order to reign them in. I'm ambivalent about your idea, for some of it has merit, and you'd be surprised that my book is far more complex than you assume it is, and I assume by what you've written that you're a writer or want to be, and if so, feel free to do it your way. It's not my way, never has been. If true artists waited to show the world exactly what they thought and felt about the world only when the world was ready to see it, there would be no great art that forces others to think, to feel, to reevaluate their preconceptions and to experience something truly original.  

And one more time to those who have flapped their gums even though they haven't bothered to study Islam or Jihad or the violent history of Mohammed:

Even if every last single Muslim on earth was pacifist, that would not change the fact that Islam is not. The Koran, meant to be the verbatim word of Allah calls for the subjugation and murder of non-Muslims at the hands of Muslims. Islam spread by the sword after Mohammed couldn't hack it as a preacher and that fact kills it as a belief system worthy of an iota of respect.

That doesn't really answer my question.  Are you advocating that the United States of America makes it their mission to put an end to the religion of Islam worldwide, violently if necessary?

What is it you'd like your government to do in order to end those who started this war?  (Please, if you should address my question, it is not necessary to provide a lecture on the nature of Islam or why your opinions or justified.  I think I've got a handle on your thoughts on those topics.  I'm far from the smartest guy in the room, so make it easy on me.  I'd just like a clear, straight-to-the-point answer, without all the distracting tangents.)

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Al Cook
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Joined: 21 December 2004
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 6:57am | IP Logged | 11  

I'd like to see that as well, Trevor.

Here's hoping.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 8:18am | IP Logged | 12  

Emery, I suspected as much, which is why I referred to it as the story of the boiling frog. I wish an accurate, appropriate analogy had come to mind.
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