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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 03 August 2008 at 11:58pm | IP Logged | 1  

Mike, he's confident in making such idiotic assertions because he's a
hate-monger who isn't afraid to let inconvenient little things like reason
and common sense enter into his insanely bigoted thought process.
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Mike Murray
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Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:00am | IP Logged | 2  

You've clearly stated "the fact is that Muslims are more prone to violence than their fellow religionists".  To me, that means that you've done some calculation - even if it's just by thinking about it and using your judgment - of the average violence level of the followers of each of the major religions.  How else could you come to that determination?  Of course I was having some fun with the idea when I suggested you show your "calculations", because I think it's a bit silly to state an opinion like that as though it were verifiable fact.

I don't know that I disagree with you!  Maybe Islam is the most "violent religion", but I think  it's worth asking "by how much", because followers of the #2 most violent religion might be concerned that once Pigman has killed enough violent Muslims to lower the average violence level of Islam to equal to or below that of the #2 most violent religion, you might create a super-hero to go after them.
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Bosch Fawstin
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Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:07am | IP Logged | 3  

Mike, 

Muslims and their useful idiots are always attempting to lesson Islam's responsibility for the horrors that are committed in its name, by accusing relatively peaceful religions and their followers of being as equally violent, when reality tells us an entirely different story, esp. in todays world. And off the top of your head, name me the Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu terrorist groups. And if you can do that, then name me the ones that are in the same league as Hamas, Hizballah and al Qaeda.

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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:10am | IP Logged | 4  

"Useful idiots."

Man, you're a real piece of work.
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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:10am | IP Logged | 5  

(oh, and a bigot.)
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Bosch Fawstin
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Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:19am | IP Logged | 6  

Your argument is worthy of Mohammed, Zaki.

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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:27am | IP Logged | 7  

Classy, bigot.
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Bosch Fawstin
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Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:32am | IP Logged | 8  

Mo a classy bigot? If you say so, though I'd say worse.

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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:33am | IP Logged | 9  

And with that, I'm done. I have to kiss my kid good night and remind
myself that Bosch's brand of insanity and ignorance represents a very
small minority, thank goodness.

Bosch, stand tall, brother. Keep fighting the good fight against the
gathered forces of rationality and common sense. You're making the rest
of us look good. Oh, and make sure you have plenty of starch for those
white sheets.

Peace! (religion of, that is.)
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Mike Murray
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Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:42am | IP Logged | 10  

I did not say that all religions are equally violent!  I asked about your methodology because I was trying to get an insight into your reasoning.  You won't address the question of how the other religions compare in overall violence, I don't know if you've taken into account the sheer size of Islam, with maybe a billion total followers, when you think about these things because you won't address that.  I don't know if you look at the question from multiple points of view or whether when you consider "violence" you count "good violence" like when our overwhelmingly Christian army blows up a terrorist training camp (which I wholeheartedly support) or takes over Iraq (which I did not), but that's violence either way, right? 

Would Pigman be willing to live next door to an Islamic family, if they weren't killers?  Could he be friendly to them?  I'm honestly intrigued by some of the possibilities here.  Like what if he had some nice Islamic neighbors (if you stipulate that there can be such a thing) and one day they approached Pigman about his outfit and how it made them feel.  Is there any room in your Pigman stories for such sympathetic characters or for Pigman to have to struggle with such issues?
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:52am | IP Logged | 11  

"If we were to accept the premise that all religions are equally violent, then what would that be saying about Muslims today, as opposed to followers of other religions? That Muslims are morally inferior and more prone to violence than their fellow religionists. That's the logical conclusion if you follow that false premise."

No. The logical conclusion here is that you can't read.

As I've said before: the reason christianity is now relatively benign is not because the christian religion is somehow "better". Which would be the point you're making. It's external forces such as humanist thought, all the enlightenment ideas of individual liberty, the growth of functional democracies, embracing and accepting scientific thought etc. What we commonly throw in a bag and refer to as the secularization of society.

These ideas, these movements have at times in the past appealed to Islamic writers, scholars, princes etc. but in the currently repressed Islamic countries these ideas are shut out. Mainly because modern islamic societies are very isolationist, sceptical of western thought and resentful towards the former colonial powers of Europe. The leaders who view humanism as heresy incompatible with Islam are more powerful than those who see humanism as a natural extension of Islam.

Whatever my opinion of religion, I do not see Christian humanists or Islamic humanists as threats, but extremists on either side must be dealt with.

And are you really suggesting that there are no Christian Terrorists? Was the IRA a pipe-dream? Did Timothy McVeigh not blow up a building in Oklahoma? Are there no abortion clinic bombings?

And Jewish terrorists? Was it Yitzhak Rabin or Shimon Peres who described the conquest of the territories that became Israel as a campaign of terror?

Terror and terrorism is a weapon. Practically everyone uses it.  Or have used it at some point. We have.You want someone bigger than Hamas, Hizbollah or Al-Qada? I don't see why, but ok. Nazis. See how easy that is? You get stuck in an argument like this and you just go "Hitler" or "Nazis" and you win. Terror? check. Christian? check (though Nazism is not exactly mainstream in that respect.)

If your point is that "Islam is bad, let's go after Islam", then fine. You choose to lose the battle before you even begin.

If you choose to go after violent Islamic extremists, there's a good chance moderates and liberals will agree with you. After that, if you feel that you have compelling rational arguments against Islam, quite a few moderates and liberals are willing to listen.

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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 04 August 2008 at 1:01am | IP Logged | 12  

"Like what if he had some nice Islamic neighbors (if you stipulate that there can be such a thing) and one day they approached Pigman about his outfit and how it made them feel.  Is there any room in your Pigman stories for such sympathetic characters or for Pigman to have to struggle with such issues?"

Don't bother, Mike.

On a previous occasion when we discussed Pigman with Bosch,  I pointed out that Superheros were not just about hitting people, but rescuing people or protecting people. I asked him about a hypothetical scenario (If I remember correctly) where Pigman is put in a position where there are kids in a burning building and he can go in there and save them, but they die because they can't let him touch them or carry them because he's wearing a costume made of unclean pig-skin.

But of course Bosch set me straight. His Pigman is for hitting moslem terrorists, not saving moslem children from burning buildings, so the issue would never come up.

But if he's not about saving people, I really think Superhero is the wrong word. Even the Punisher saves kids from danger from time to time.

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