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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 13149
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 1
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Islam is the core of 'Qutbism', [as you call it.]
***
It's not my coinage.
"Sayyid Qutb is widely read in the Islamic world today, ...probably the single most important influence in the formation of young Muslim extremists." Stephen Schwartz, The Two Faces of Islam
Merely reading the Quran or studying the Hadith does not explain 9/11. It's impossible to grasp jihad and jahiliyyah as understood and practiced by modern Islamic terrorists by simply invoking Quranic ideas without addressing how Qutbism significantly helped create a radically new phenomenon.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7369
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 10:01am | IP Logged | 2
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"You mistake the idea of jihad, a doctrine of warfare within Islam, and practiced by Mohammed, to Jews and Christians who may have acted violently outside the moral bounds of their religion."
And I would say that you mistake the justifications for Christian violence as originating wholly from outside the religion itself. The non-violent period of Christianity, such as it is, ends when Constantine embraces it as his empire's religion of choice. Before the editing of the canonical bible. And there is ample hostility towards those who do not believe and those who reject Jesus found in the quotes attributed to Jesus himself as well as his actions towards the money-changers in the temple for instance. Also remember that Peter and Paul, the two people primarily responsible for the development of the early post-christ period of the movement, were violent and aggressive men.
And the old testament minces no words in recommending the death of the unbelievers. None. It does not even allow for conversion.
Jesus spoke from a position of no military or economic power. Mohammad had armies. I think that is the chief difference between the two at the time of the writing of their respective books/histories. The reality of the violence committed by their followers is not much different (once Christianity attains a position of power).
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Zaki Hasan Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8101
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 10:06am | IP Logged | 3
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Again, Knut, some very interesting thoughts. Let me say again that I've greatly enjoyed the perspective you've added to this conversation.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 13149
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 10:13am | IP Logged | 4
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And the old testament minces no words in recommending the death of the unbelievers. None. It does not even allow for conversion.
***
The last comment is inaccurate -- Jewish scripture is rife with proselytes.
As for some good OT violence, how about Pslam 137:9?
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7369
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 5
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"The last comment is inaccurate -- Jewish scripture is rife with proselytes."
Of course. My mind was stuck in a particular section of the Pentateuch where there are warnings against associating with the unbelievers as they might seduce the faithful away from the true faith. I should have said that Islam is much more encouraging of conversion to their faith and make it much easier. Judaism doesn't allow conversions with the same ease or to the same degree. Isn't that about right?
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 13149
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 6
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Judaism -- and, of course, there are different kinds -- rather puts up a front of refusing converts, but it's mostly not true. From the most liberal to the most conservative, you find converts everywhere. In my neighborhood, which is very Orthodox, it's funny to see how many men have married the local spanish supermarket check out girl. Syrian Jews in America are notorious for absolutely refusing conversion, however, and getting converts recognized in Israel, especially if they are not under Orthodox auspices, has become difficult. It's not so easy to become a Jewish convert, but again that depends on how you're converting. In America, an Orthodox conversion can take a few years, but Reform or Conservative can be one year or less. In Britain, the Orthodox rabbis are very strict and usually require many years, even half a decade to convert someone.
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Bosch Fawstin Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 23 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 141
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | 7
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If we were to accept the premise that all religions are equally violent, then what would that be saying about Muslims today, as opposed to followers of other religions? That Muslims are morally inferior and more prone to violence than their fellow religionists. That's the logical conclusion if you follow that false premise. The fact is that Musims are more prone to violence than their fellow religionists because their religion is more violent, from its edicts to its prophet to its characteristic response to challenge, Islam has always justified violence against those outside the faith.
Edited by Bosch Fawstin on 03 August 2008 at 11:10pm
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Mike Murray Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 20 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 530
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 11:12pm | IP Logged | 8
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"If we were to accept the premise that all religions are equally
violent, then what would that be saying about Muslims today, as opposed
to followers of other religions? That Muslims are morally inferior and
more prone to violence than their fellow religionists. That's the
logical conclusion if you follow that false premise. The fact is that
Musims are more prone to violence than their fellow religionists
because their religion is more violent, from its edicts to its prophet
to its characteristic response to challenge, Islam has always justified
violence against those outside the faith."
****************************************************
Well there are an awful lot of Muslims. Did you remember to divide the total level of violence by about a billion, to calculate the violence level of the average Muslim? And what was that number, as opposed to the violence level of the average, say, Christian? You've told us that the number is higher, but I'm wondering just how much higher, percentage-wise. Maybe you could post your exact calculations?
Edited by Mike Murray on 03 August 2008 at 11:14pm
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Bosch Fawstin Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 23 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 141
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | 9
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How very dhimmi of you.
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Mike Murray Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 20 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 530
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 11:23pm | IP Logged | 10
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Bosch Fawstin
"How very dhimmi of you."
**************************
Thanks? Even Google isn't helping me with this one. Look, I don't know if you think I'm soft on terrorism, I'm not. I want all those terrorists and the people funding them dead. I'm totally in support of our efforts in Afghanistan.
But to state as a fact that the average Muslim is more violent than the average any thing else - if that is indeed what you're saying - well I don't understand how you can be so confident in making that declaration.
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Bosch Fawstin Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 23 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 141
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | 11
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What is the most violent religion in the world? is a question we all know the answer to, no matter that many among us will hate the fact that the answer shot to the top of each of our minds.
Edited by Bosch Fawstin on 03 August 2008 at 11:47pm
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Bosch Fawstin Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 23 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 141
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| Posted: 03 August 2008 at 11:49pm | IP Logged | 12
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Mike, let me restate it and ask you to try to read it as carefully as you can before you attempt to get out of it what's not in it:
"If we were to accept the premise that all religions are equally violent, then what would that be saying about Muslims today, as opposed to followers of other religions? That Muslims are morally inferior and more prone to violence than their fellow religionists. That's the logical conclusion if you follow that false premise. The fact is that Musims are more prone to violence than their fellow religionists because their religion is more violent, from its edicts to its prophet to its characteristic response to challenge, Islam has always justified violence against those outside the faith."
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