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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7369
Posted: 01 August 2008 at 10:52am | IP Logged | 1  

"To those who can't answer in the affirmative, why come here and pretend you have a right to argue about things you have no knowledge about? "

Leaving aside the issue of what I personally know or don't know, are you serious?  This is a democracy, Bosch. We have the right to argue about anything we'd like, no matter the level of our knowledge on the subject.

You may question the level of our insight or understanding of the subject, and clearly you do, but to suggest that people have to show their credentials at the door for the privilege of disagreeing with you on somebody else's website? Damn.

I think the extremist  Islamic frame of my mind that you so fiercely condemn has damaged you more than you realize. You view the world exactly as you say your enemies do, only with Islam as the pure Villain instead of the pure Hero.

We've seen this before, many of us. It is the blind fervor or zealotry of the recent "convert". The recently sober alcoholic who vilifies people who drink in moderation as "alcoholics in denial". The Born Again christian who condemns others for actions that pale in comparison to his own former depravities.

Don't just tell us what you believe. Challenge your anger. Consider the possibility that you are wrong and attack your own views with every ounce of logic and insight that you are capable of. I do that myself. I've been able to rid myself of some prejudices and affirm my positions in other areas by such self-examination.

I'm not sure you've examined yourself and your beliefs as fully as perhaps you should. Your anger remains a dull, heavy instrument without accuracy or grace. Anger can motivate great art, but only if that anger is honed into a sharp, light, graceful instrument that cuts to the quick and debones with the flick of a wrist. That takes a lot of work, and clearly you haven't done the work.

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Mike Murray
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Joined: 20 September 2004
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 2  

Remember, folks, Pigman is a Muslim himself!
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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 3  

Zaki; it strikes me that a bit of biographical detail on your own religious
background might be relevant here, if you'd care to share.

*****

I've been a Muslim since I was a child, and certainly it plays an important role in who I am, and has shaped my personality in many ways.  I consider myself very lucky to have gained an understanding of the faith that encompasses its many subtleties and nuances, as well as the richness of its cultural and social tradition.  I truly feel bad that Mr. Fawstin's experience with the religion left him with such an axe to grind that he feels things like "Pigman" are his only recourse, but for me it's always been a comfort and never a curse.
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Al Cook
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 4  

Kevin, Zaki, now Knut. My man-love is reaching across the world!
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Al Cook
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 10:56am | IP Logged | 5  

Zaki, are you commanded to kill me because I reject your God and his
prophets?
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Brian Talley
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 6  

Kevin, Zaki, now Knut. My man-love is reaching across the world!

*****************

*sigh*


 

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Al Cook
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 7  

Brian, you know you have a place in my heart that is yours and yours alone...
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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 11:02am | IP Logged | 8  

Zaki, are you commanded to kill me because I reject your God and his
prophets?

*****

WHO TOLD YO--er, I mean...uh...*heh*...why would you...uh, say that? (hiding oversized cartoon mallet behind back)
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Al Cook
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 9  

Ha!

Seriously, it's a relevant question in the face of some of the statements
that Bosch has made about Islam as a whole.

Obviously, even if you are commanded to kill me, I don't fear that you'll
carry through (since you haven't already slain me for my behaviour in
some of the Star Trek or Movies threads that we've argued in, I doubt that
much would provoke you into actual action on the matter.)

My question is this: Bosch has categorically stated that your religion
commands you to be a murderer. As a practicing follower of this
religion, is that true? And if so, why don't you follow through? Why
shouldn't we all fear you, and by extension, every one who follows Islam
no matter what form it should take?

(Obviously, some of these are rhetorical questions. No one in this thread
seems to think that the vast majority of the modern Christian world is a
deadly threat anymore, regardless of some of the more strident demands
of the Bible, for example.)
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Martin Kogan
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 10  

Well, I'm gonna start a Jihad to declare Zaki, Al and Brian my all-time favorite posters.
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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 11  

My question is this: Bosch has categorically stated that your religion
commands you to be a murderer. As a practicing follower of this
religion, is that true?

******

Nope.

As you mention obliquely with your reference to the Christian world, passages of any "sacred" text can be finessed in any number of directions based entirely on how they are interpreted.  This is why it's so dangerous when people use religion -- any religion -- as a catch-all with which they can throw their hands up and say "God made me do it!" 

There's no question that there are segments of the Qur'an that, stripped of meaning or context, take on a militant or violent dimension, and these segments can, in turn, drive the less-knowledgeable into doing some pretty dire things. 

However, the implicit understanding, with any religious text, is that they be studied and interpreted based on the social and historical realities of the time, and that they in turn be weighed against our common understanding of, for lack of a better phrase, the moral imperative.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
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Posted: 01 August 2008 at 11:36am | IP Logged | 12  

Non-association with followers of other faiths is a feature of all Abrahamite religions. Less so with Islam (at least for the first few centuries)  , as it only discourages instead of prohibiting it except in cases of intermarriage and then primarily in cases where the woman is moslem. (In christianity limited freedom of association is a feature introduced post-ascension by Peter as a lead in to the conversion of gentiles).  As far as I understand it, in relation to people of the book, there is no call to do them any harm whatsoever. However, apostates or people who seek to convert moslems to other faiths are at risk for a death penalty in many islamic countries under Sharia law.

In terms of periods of pragmatic co-existence, of course these non-association rules have been more relaxed. During the golden age of the Ottoman empire, freedom of religion was assured to a great extent (in view of the time period). And in most christian and jewish communities these days the non-association rules are not observed at all. Most, but not all. Many islamic countries in Africa and the Middle East are not at present experiencing a period of peaceful pragmatic co-existence.

It is speculated that what is required is an internal movement towards reformation or enlightenment that can only arise from within Islam itself. There are some signs of it, people reaching back to an idea (as opposed to the more complex reality) of Islam's Golden Age in terms of the pursuit of knowledge and peaceful trade and tolerance towards people of other faiths, as a template for an Arab/ Islamic renaissance.

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