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Michael Penn
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Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12520
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 1
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> So the question is, aside from falsifying the business records, what did Trump do that was unlawful? <
It's better in asking this not to say "aside" because this loses the dependency of the second act. Trump criminally recorded the repayment of hush money to Cohen as legal fees in order to do what else criminally?
The prosecution made three arguments -- the second crime was any or all of these: [1] using the hush money as an illegally large donation to Trump's campaign; [2] making additional false business filings, especially bank records of the wire transfer from Cohen to Stormy; and [3] making false statements to tax authorities, since Trump's repaying Cohen was falsely structured as Cohen's income and also falsely "grossed up" by several hundred thousand to cover taxes.
Edited by Michael Penn on 05 June 2024 at 11:49am
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Kevin Brown
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 8855
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 2
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So the question is, aside from falsifying the business records, what did Trump do that was unlawful?
***************************
I'm sure you'll roll your eyes and make some MAGA excuse for it, but there it is in "black & white".
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | 3
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Just to be clear, here are the pertinent parts of NY Code, for those who don't understand what laws were broken 34 times:
"§ 17-152. Conspiracy to promote or prevent election. Any two or morepersons who conspire to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means and which conspiracy is acted upon by one or more of the parties thereto, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
§ 175.10 Falsifying business records in the first degree. A person is guilty of falsifying business records in the first degree when he commits the crime of falsifying business records in the second degree, and when his intent to defraud includes an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.
Falsifying business records in the first degree is a class E felony."
TLDR; 17-152 is a misdemeanor, but if used to cover another crime (175.10) it becomes a felony. Which he did, and was found guilty of 34 times by a jury of his peers, all the members of which he agreed on.
It only would take 1 of the 5 Trump voters in the Jury to get a hung jury with no conviction, but none of them did, even the one who got all their news from Truth Social.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132579
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 1:00pm | IP Logged | 4
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Trump made the point while president* that he could “shoot somebody on 5th Avenue” with impunity. In fact, in a democracy, the reverse is true. The higher the office, the greater the scrutiny and responsibility. If I was guilty of Trump’s 34 counts, it would be of little serious consequence. But I am nobody, far from the most powerful individual in the country, arguably the World. ———- * O Dear Dog, that HAPPENED!
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ron bailey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 October 2016
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Posts: 960
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 2:23pm | IP Logged | 5
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The only reason this question about the unlawfulness of his actions is bandied about is to taint the validity of the verdict in public discourse, i.e. if you (the average Joe) can't articulate what the offense was then there must be something suspect about the legitimacy of it.
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Matt Hawes
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16463
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 6
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Simply put, Trump illegally interfered with the Presidential election. I'd bet all of MAGA was behind impeaching Bill Clinton for having consensual sex in the oval office, and would crucify Biden for anything Trump has done that's shady, but yet they are fine with Trump manipulating things and cooking the books to hide he paid off a porn star because it would impact on his chances of winning the election. Americans had the right to know that information before voting for him.
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Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8427
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | 7
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The simplest explanation is this:
All the politicians who are pro-Trump are criminals or coattail-riders. Or both.
All the people voting for Trump - including those politicians - are morons. Especially those who think the last election was rigged and Trump really won.
Trump won the first election because he wasn't Hilary Clinton. He lost the second election because he's Donald Trump. If Biden had chose to run back then, we wouldn't be dealing with this.
Look at how the Republicans dealt with Nixon and Watergate, and how they're handling Trump. Disgraceful. Its like "Yes, he's liar and a crook, but he's our liar and crook!" without actually admitting anything despite mountains of evidence.
And if SCOTUS grants Trump Presidential Immunity on anything, we might as well toss the Constitution in the trash.
Edited by Brian Floyd on 05 June 2024 at 3:30pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132579
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | 8
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I understood Trump voters when I saw nuns at his rallies. His followers compartmentalize him. The brides of Christ vote for “pro-life” Trump and fret not about his multiple marriages and adulteries. Anti-government yobbos see him as one of them. So do gun nuts. And he’s just racist enough to appeal to those morons.
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Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 9
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I get why people voted for Trump the first time. I did not, but got why some people did, even if I disagreed.
But anyone who voted for him a second time, and those planning on voting for him again? Absolutely not.
These idiots call him a patriot, when he is really a traitor who doesn't care anything about them other than their votes.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12520
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | 10
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>> The only reason this question about the unlawfulness of his actions is bandied about is to taint the validity of the verdict in public discourse, i.e. if you (the average Joe) can't articulate what the offense was then there must be something suspect about the legitimacy of it. <<
As a matter of political strategy, no doubt.
But there are reasonable questions about the trial that will also no doubt be brought up on appeal. Just one example, the judge allowed the prosecution not to specifically identify the three secondary unlawful means until late in the proceedings, and Trump will argue this prevented a proper defense and thus violated due process. There are other arguments as well.
(None of that changes anything about Trump being wholly unfit for office.)
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Brian Miller
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Joined: 28 July 2004
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 11
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And if SCOTUS grants Trump Presidential Immunity on anything, we might
as well toss the Constitution in the trash.
*****
If this happens, there’s a quick phone call Biden needs to make.
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Peter Hicks
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Joined: 30 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1907
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| Posted: 05 June 2024 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | 12
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“ Trump made the point while president* that he could “shoot somebody on 5th Avenue” with impunity. In fact, in a democracy, the reverse is true. The higher the office, the greater the scrutiny and responsibility. If I was guilty of Trump’s 34 counts, it would be of little serious consequence. But I am nobody, far from the most powerful individual in the country, arguably the World.” *********** The reverse seems to be true with the classified documents case. If the FBI found you with those documents, you would be locked away in solitary confinement out of concern you might leak the contents of the documents to God knows who while awaiting trial.
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